Sythetic Oil

[urbanbiker]

ok, good article to read. So castrol syntec is not made from synthetic base stock, but still has the same performance characteristics of a true synthetic. I haven't priced out any true synthetic oil but I can imagine it is more expensive than the Castrol.

I'll have to do some research and check all that out, I do agree with you that Castrol is not made from a Synthetic Base...

I use Motul 5100 10w40 in my motorcycle. It is a semi synthetic not a full and thats what most shops will recommend you use in that bike or anybike in that same category. So I don't see any problem running Castrol Syntec unless the pricing is out. Opinion?

Thanks for the read, I learned a little more today

Matt

 

[goldstar]

ok, good article to read. So castrol syntec is not made from synthetic base stock, but still has the same performance characteristics of a true synthetic. I haven't priced out any true synthetic oil but I can imagine it is more expensive than the Castrol. Matt

I certainly agree with you that Castrol Syntec, being derived from Group III hydrocracked petroleum base stock, is a high quality oil. However, I would disagree with your assertion that it has the same performance characteristics as a true synthetic. True synthetic oils have inherent beneficial properties that simply can't be obtained in even the best hydrocracked oils. Since you're obviously interested in this subject and I've written about this before and don't want to repeat myself, you might want to look at: http://imazda.com/forums/showthread.php?t=277

Hydrocracked oils are more expensive to produce than conventional mineral oils while Group IV PAOs are even more costly and Group V Polyol esters are the most expensive of the lot. This is reflected, for example, in the retail price of PAO-based Mobil 1 as compared with ester-based Red Line. One of my objections to Syntec is its price: it's sold at the same price as a true synthetic. Recall that when Castrol switched its Syntec from a PAO-based product to one derived from hydrocracking, it did not lower its price even though its production costs went down (after all, that's why it made the switch).

A second objection I have to Syntec is the way it's marketed. Although perfectly legal, and Castrol is certainly not alone here, this practice deceives the consumer into the nature of what's actually being bought.

Although I'm not familiar with Motul 5100 specifically, I know that the company makes true synthetics, synthetic blends and conventional mineral oil-based products. Motul 8100 E-Tech lite 0W-30 and Motul 8100 Ester E-Tech 0W-40 are both high quality, full synthetic ester-based oils.

 

[Crazee D]

So where does this leave us?
I feel more confused now then before.
Goldstar, you appear to be quite the expert on the subject so tell us if "nitro" got it right:

In order of best to just-under-the-best:
Redline
Amsoil
Royal Purple

And then school us on what weight to choose....for cold weather

Thanks!!

 

[goldstar]

So where does this leave us?
I feel more confused now then before.

I certainly don't consider myself an "expert" on lubricating oils and I'm sorry if I've managed to confuse anyone. I think my main point was that alongside the small number of true synthetic oils that are available, there are a still larger number that only masquerade as such. For those of you who care about the difference, I was trying to provide guidelines about how the distinction can be made.

Based on the definition that true synthetic oils are derived wholly from API Group IV or Group V base stocks, the list of oils that I believe to be true synthetics, because they list the constituent base stocks from which they are derived, is as follows:
Amsoil - PAO based
Cosworth - PAO and ester based
German Castrol - ? based
Mobil 1 and Mobil 1 Extended Performance - PAO based
Motul (only the 8100 E-Tech oils) - ester based
Red Line -ester based
There may be other true synthetic oils out there and if I've left any out, I apologize, but these are the only ones of which I currently know.

In terms of whether iliveonnitro's list "got it right", I don't really like to comment on which specific oils are better than others within the class of true synthetics since it somewhat depend on the use to which the lubricant is put. Without wishing to start a war, I will say that including Royal Purple in his list was IMO a mistake since I don't believe Royal Purple is a true synthetic for reasons already stated.

However, many lubrication experts consider ester based oils to be superior to any other type, including PAOs, because Polyol ester molecules have an inherent polarity that both attracts them to one another and to positively charged metal surfaces which gives it an inherent advantage in three areas. If you're interested in the details, check out the reference I cited above.

Turning to the best oil viscosity ranges for cold weather use, the first place to start is OEM recommendation. That being said, one of the outstanding properties of true synthetic oils is their ability to be formulated with extended viscosity ranges that would be problematic in the case of mineral oils. While a 5W-30 or even a 10W-30 stretch the limits of stability for mineral oils, 0W-30 and 0W-40 oils are becoming more common in the case of synthetics. Although the FSM calls for 10W-30 for my car, there is probably no reason I couldn't use a 5W-30 or even a 0W-30 in cold weather to take advantage of the better lubrication such an oil would provide at very low temperatures.

 

[shane02pro5]

You may want to pull Royal Purple from your list also. I switched to Mobil 1 since finding out it is still Dino based.

 

[Crazee D]

Thank you for the excellent summary goldy!

So if I can pick your brain a little further for the benefit of myself and others...

Of the types you mention, which are better engineered for what applications?

Turbo or N/A, cold/hot climates, daily driver, etc..?

 

[iliveonnitro]

Thank you for the excellent summary goldy!

So if I can pick your brain a little further for the benefit of myself and others...

Of the types you mention, which are better engineered for what applications?

Turbo or N/A, cold/hot climates, daily driver, etc..?

To first answer your question: it doesn't matter. The best oil is the best oil, period. The only thing you should change between Turbo/NA, hot/cold, etc is viscosity.

The simple fact is that you drive a mazda that puts out under 300hp. You will never fully utilize the full potential of synthetic oil; and honestly, the only benefits you will see between brands is the cost and availability of each. To anyone who disagrees, prove me wrong. If your car is making 200hp and you switch between synthetic oils, you will still be at 200hp. Any variations, for better or for worse, are due to other variable conditions under which you have little to no control. If you car regularly maintained, switching between synthetic oils won't make it last another year/15,000 miles. Period.

I did research on this subject EXTENSIVELY two years ago - to the point where I did individual oil analysis tests for each brand of oil using applications from a 2002 Honda CR-V, a 2000 Grand Prix GT, and a 350whp '73 Dodge Charger. What did the study conclude? It concluded that differences between oils were within % errors that could have been due to other factors (engine wear, humidity, switching oil filters, air density, air temperature).

Most of your benefits will be simply due to the fact that you switched to synthetic and you stop using a low quality oil filter. Changing synthetic oil under 5-6000 miles is a waste of money unless you are pushing huge power numbers, AND your driving style mimics a drag strip (eg, drag cars).

I found the best oil change intervals for the GP were 6500 miles, with a filter change every 3k. The CRV did significantly better at 9k and two filter changes, and the charger needed to be changed every 4k miles with filter. These were with Royal Purple (the best intervals for filter changes were actually higher, but still less than oil change intervals)

Separate oils were only tested in the GP and Charger. Both times, Red Line won with overall performance. The owner of the now-sold Charger (my best friend) still uses Red Line in his Duster. Amsoil fared the best for oil change intervals - their advertisements are nearly true. After 10k miles on the GP (and a very scared owner..me) the oil appeared good to use for another ~5k miles. Our Mazdas could probably afford 7-8k miles with filter changes half way. Anything less than 6k miles would be a waste of money, and you are better off sticking with dino oil.

The reason my friend and I both used Royal Purple in our daily drivers is because it was the cheapest for us to buy in bulk - MUCH cheaper. Considering it fared almost as good as both Red Line and Amsoil, the economic gain by changing the oil in somewhat shorter intervals outweighed paying the extra cost for Amsoil and Red Line - despite their SLIGHTLY improved performances.

Go to bobistheoilguy.com for a starting point for your search for the "best oil" and "best filter." Either way, you will not be able to tell a difference between the best oils. Period.

 

[jimmysuite]

Amsoil all the way... My last car 2001 (2.2L non ecotec) crapalier I bought with 30K sold it to my mom with over 110K.. i averaged 20,000 miles per oil change. (i put the bypass kit on it at 50K) when i bought the p5 I switched the kit over right away. This time around I have bigger filters and hopefully down the road i get the deep sump oil pan pushing my oil capacity to just over 8 quarts. I told my friend he could weld my drain plug on.

 

[jimmysuite]

im at about 5.5 quarts right now and at the next filter change ill be close to 6.5 (bigger filters)

 

[goldstar]

Thank you for the excellent summary goldy!

So if I can pick your brain a little further for the benefit of myself and others...

Of the types you mention, which are better engineered for what applications?

Turbo or N/A, cold/hot climates, daily driver, etc..?

I would say that for the applications about which you've inquired (DD, temperature extremes, NA or turbo), any of the true synthetic oils I've listed above would be adequate. That being said, my particular preference is for an ester-based oil because of the inherent advantages it has over a PAO-based oil. Whether these advantages translate into a meaningful difference in normal road use is debateable, but it's nice to know they're there, just in case. For a competition car or any high-boost turbo application, I consider ester-based oil to be the lubricant of choice.

Without going into great detail, the inherent polarity of Polyol ester molecules causes an intermolecular attraction that requires more heat energy for the esters to transfer from a liquid to a gaseous state. Therefore, at a given molecular weight or viscosity, esters will exhibit a lower vapor pressure which results in a higher flashpoint and a lower rate of evaporation for the lubricant. Because of their greater thermal stability and lower volatility compared with PAOs, they can extend the high temperature operating range of a lubricant by as much as 50 to 100 deg C. As a result, Polyol esters have been used exclusively as the lubrication for gas turbine (jet) engines for several decades now as they can withstand sump temperatures of over 200 deg C (400 deg F). For this reason, they may be useful for high boost turbo operation in automobiles as well.

Turning to a more practical application as a result of their use in road cars, the polarity of ester molecules causes them to be attracted to positively charged metal surfaces creating a film that requires additional energy (load) to penetrate. The electrostatic forces that cause the molecules to stick to metal surfaces insure that a protective layer is there at all times, even during the crucial start-up period. This helps to protect cams, gears, piston rings and valve train components, where lubrication is "boundary" in which a very thin non-pressure fed film has to hold the surfaces apart rather than the pressure fed "hydrodynamic" type. Even crank bearings benefit at starts, stops or when extreme shock loads upset the hydrodynamic film.

Finally, while PAO has poor solvent characteristics, the polar nature of esters makes them good solvents and dispersants. This allows the esters to solubilize or disperse oil degradation by-products that might otherwise be deposited on engine surfaces as varnish or sludge and results in cleaner operation and improved solubility for additives in the final product.

Again, how much these characteristics benefit road cars is open to question, but they certainly can do no harm and it's good to know they're there if you need them. Also, keep in mind that even PAO-based oils may have varying amounts of esters added to obtain at least some of the possible benefits. A case in point is Cosworth.

 

[Crazee D]

OK, so lets talk weights....I read about some 0 (zero) weight oils. Would those help my frequent cold weather cold starts?

 

[jtgh]

I challange you all to examine the difference from
Chevron Delo 40 15w-40 ( ignore the weight ratings)
Chevron takes crude oil & shortens the HC chains (today)
to a perfect lubricating oil. THis is synthetic oil.
legally or other wise. It was Hydro Cracked to a perfect base. ( no excess garbage in the oil !)


then we take exhibit B, any so called synthetic oil , you know the claim, 1 oil change per year, bla , bla.
They buy the alpha olefins,
this can come from animal fat but we all now there are more crankcases then there are dead amimals in the slauter house, so as SYN sales ramp up , they buy dino olefins.
Trace where (whomever) got their Olefins and you have your answer.

The best answer I have ever seen on this top is this:
one guy (eg:chevron) takes long chain HC and reduces them to perfection (call the base lub)
the other guys (redline,etc) take the short chains and makes them longer to arrive at the EXACT SAME PLACE.

The only real issue is who does it the most efficiently and with the least pollution to the environ.
I'll bet Chevon kicks all the butts.

I do not work for this industry.

THe secret is to examine what is true today, forget the past as it has all changed.
---------------------------------------------------------------


quotes from metafilter.com
Anyway, that's a question I didn't really know the answer to, so naturally I had to go look it up. Yes, synthetic oils are derived from "oil". This serves as a good introduction to learning far more that you probably want to know about synthetic engine oils.
posted by sfenders at 5:54 PM PST on April 15


On further reading, it gets slightly more complicated. This document tells me that some "synthetic" oils do not come from what it calls "dino juice". But it mentions polyalphaolefin as a primary example. That stuff is widely used in engine oils. Apparently it's made "by oligomerizing alphaolefins such as 1-decene in the presence of a catalyst." I started on reading about the production of alpha olefins, but from there it gets more complicated again. It's all hydrocarbons, so I'm sure some of it does, if you trace the chain of production back far enough, come from "dino oil". Natural gas would do at least as well though. Steam cracking, the Ziegler method, etc. There are several other kinds of synthetic lubricants for various applications, some of which are enumerated here.

Right, I think I'll go do something slightly less insane now.
posted by sfenders at 6:29 PM PST on April 15

 

[iliveonnitro]

OK, so lets talk weights....I read about some 0 (zero) weight oils. Would those help my frequent cold weather cold starts?

If by 0 weight you mean 0W-30: yes, it will help your cold weather starts.

Maybe we should turn this into a "where are the cheapest deals on these oils" thread.

 

[Omar MSP]

If by 0 weight you mean 0W-30: yes, it will help your cold weather starts.

Maybe we should turn this into a "where are the cheapest deals on these oils" thread.

ha!

i've been looking at Greddy's supply of oils. there line looks pretty good. specially for turbocharged cars.

 

[Klip]

Okay, that helped with my decision on what oil to use, what about Oil Filters? Someone mentioned something about better performing Oil filters, care to list a few here?

 

[Sveivo]

Mobil1 10W30 for life

Good filters: Purolator, Bosch--the ones I use on a regular basis.

 

[Sveivo]

BTW, there is a spelling error in the title of the thread; not sure is this had been addressed , but I thought I would cover it.

 

[Omar MSP]

BTW, there is a spelling error in the title of the thread; not sure is this had been addressed , but I thought I would cover it.

o snap, fixed.

 

[igdrasil]

I dont know about oils, only by usage and...

Castrol Syntec sucks big time, Ive used it and in 1 month with turbo abuse it becomse useless.

Mobil1 Synthetic is way better. Use and abused for over 4 months and holding, starting to blackout after 3 months.

Mobil1 10w30 very good
Mobil1 20w50 for us in PR is very damn gooood.

We dont need multigrade oils in PR, temps here fluctuate between 65F and 90F, usually from 78F to 92F

 

[i12drivemyMP5]

Syntec 0-30 doesn't suck. The mobil 1 blacked up, the syntec never has, just a little browner. Same intervals, same filters, same driving habits. The syntec came out of the pan much more intact like from the bottle than the mobil 1 did. That's with NA daily driver in TX, anywhere from 25 - 105 F outside air temps.