Stupid question about Cobb APcan't find the answer though...

[unicef]

Stupid question about Cobb APcan't find the answer though...

I've spent the past hour trying to search this forum and Google, and can't come up with a clear answer. It's entirely likely I'm just an idiot, but if someone could give me a hand here I'd appreciate it.

From looking at the maps provided by Cobb, it seems as if the AP is meant only to work with the MS CAI, or the Cobb SRI. I know not everyone using the AP has one of these two intakes, so what happens to someone like me using a CP-E CAI (not the nano)? What map do I use, or is it generally not advisable to use the AP at all in this situation?

Thanks!

 

[derspi]

You can use tuning solutions like the AP or CPE's standback with pretty much any intake and/or mods you want or have. The catch with the AP is that the OTS maps (the ones you download from Cobb) were only tuned with those specific mods in mind, it doesn't mean you can't run a different intake, just know that your results may vary if you do so. Up until recently, the OTS maps were all that were available from Cobb but with the release of AcessTuner Race, you can fine tune your setup as you wish and for any mods you can think of. ATR will be released on April 20th. CPE's standback has always been user tuneable and with either system I would recommend having a reputable tuner mess with them as you can kill your engine if you don't know what you're doing.

 

[unicef]

Thanks for the reply. I'm not interested in the Standback because I want to be able to plug-n-play, and go back to stock easily if needed.

So with the ATR, will people create their own maps based on their setups, and then be able to share the maps with people using the same setups?

 

[tunersteve]

There are more maps available besides the Cobb ones. www.mzdspd.com has quite a few more that were worked on.

With ATR, you can take a map in ATR form and tweak the tables. I wouldn't recommend doing this unless you have a background of the material, but it will open up the ability for owners to trade maps and fine tune things at their own discretion.

 

[onelsono]

u dnt have to have exactly wut the map says, as long as its close to wut u have..

 

[COBB Tuning]

u dnt have to have exactly wut the map says, as long as its close to wut u have..

This is not entirely true. Since the MS3 ECU calculates boost off of airflow, altering the intake can have dramatic effects on not just fueling but also on boost and calculated load. Not all intakes are created anywhere near equally, that is to say, they are all different and variations in inner diamater of the intake, ramp angle of the velocity stack ahead of the MAF sensor or even the laminar straighteners can alter MAF signal.

These are just things to consider when looking for parts for your car. Of course, custom tuning can negate many of these concerns. Hopefully this sheds a little light on your quest for more performance.

Travis Geny
COBB Tuning

 

[Nliiitend1]

^^What he said.

 

[onelsono]

This is not entirely true. Since the MS3 ECU calculates boost off of airflow, altering the intake can have dramatic effects on not just fueling but also on boost and calculated load. Not all intakes are created anywhere near equally, that is to say, they are all different and variations in inner diamater of the intake, ramp angle of the velocity stack ahead of the MAF sensor or even the laminar straighteners can alter MAF signal.

These are just things to consider when looking for parts for your car. Of course, custom tuning can negate many of these concerns. Hopefully this sheds a little light on your quest for more performance.

Travis Geny
COBB Tuning

yea i get the intake side of it but wut about the exhaust part, does it make that much of a difference if ur catted or not? dnt the maps on the AP call for catted pipes?

 

[mikesul]

Are there maps for adding a downpipe both before or after adding cat back exhaust? I was thinking after the breathing (CAI) the downpipe would be the next add-on.

 

[COBB Tuning]

yea i get the intake side of it but wut about the exhaust part, does it make that much of a difference if ur catted or not? dnt the maps on the AP call for catted pipes?

The biggest difference for having a cat or not having a cat is more or less a matter of boost control. MS3s are prone to boost creep, this is a mechanical issue unrelated to tuning. The problem is that the internal wastegate on these cars is not capable of venting sufficient exhaust gas when open if back-pressure is removed from the exhaust system. What happens is that even though the ECU has told the wastgegate to open and vent exhuast gasses, the turbo continues to make boost causing boost to "creep" past specified boost targets within the ECU.

Essentially what happens is this. In a catless exhaust system, when the wastegate opens at WOT, the pressure around the wastegate is higher than it is around the turbine so even though the wastegate is all the way open, exhaust gasses continue to pass through the turbine which keeps spinning the turbo and creating boost. So even if you turn your WDC (wastegate duty cycle) to zero, the turbo will continue to make boost.

You could take fuel out, like a fuel cut, but at very high-boost levels you would go instantly lean and cause detonation and grenade your engine. The only option in this instance is a mechanical fix either be enlarging (porting) the area around your wastegate OR be reintroducing a slight amount of backpressure behind the turbo in the form of a cat.

While some people resent the notion of keeping a cat in a high-performance car under the notion that a cat will kill performance, we have found this not to be true. Most "motorsport" cats flow rather well and really the loss in horsepower is often minimal. The other option is to install an external wastegate setup which is just like it sounds, a wastegate that is plumbed externally to the turbo.

These work very well, but of course there is a cost associated with this setup in extra parts and possibly fabrication depending on your desired setup and noise tolerance. Because this is a mechanical issue related to exhaust flow within certain physical parameters, a stand-alone boost controller or an upgraded EBCS will not help much or at all.

This is generally why we say that a high-flow cat in the system is better than no cat at all, emissions concerns aside. We have seen around 350whp and 350wtq on a car running a catted downpipe so really, I would just go with the catted version, COBB of course.

As far as doing a catback or a downpipe. If you have a stock downpipe and add a catback, you aren't really changing the VE of the engine at all, so it won't need a tune like a downpipe would. If you are looking for which part will make more power, a catback or a downpipe, do the downpipe. Then, add the catback or just a full turboback.

Travis
COBB Tuning

 

[pues77]

u dnt have to have exactly wut the map says, as long as its close to wut u have..

I agree I have a CP-E CAI and I'm running "Stage1+MSCAI2 93 v103", my A/F ratio is perfect as well as my LTFT & STFT. Along with no fuel cut. That being said, it seems every one of our cars are different.

 

[onelsono]

The biggest difference for having a cat or not having a cat is more or less a matter of boost control. MS3s are prone to boost creep, this is a mechanical issue unrelated to tuning. The problem is that the internal wastegate on these cars is not capable of venting sufficient exhaust gas when open if back-pressure is removed from the exhaust system. What happens is that even though the ECU has told the wastgegate to open and vent exhuast gasses, the turbo continues to make boost causing boost to "creep" past specified boost targets within the ECU.

Essentially what happens is this. In a catless exhaust system, when the wastegate opens at WOT, the pressure around the wastegate is higher than it is around the turbine so even though the wastegate is all the way open, exhaust gasses continue to pass through the turbine which keeps spinning the turbo and creating boost. So even if you turn your WDC (wastegate duty cycle) to zero, the turbo will continue to make boost.

You could take fuel out, like a fuel cut, but at very high-boost levels you would go instantly lean and cause detonation and grenade your engine. The only option in this instance is a mechanical fix either be enlarging (porting) the area around your wastegate OR be reintroducing a slight amount of backpressure behind the turbo in the form of a cat.

While some people resent the notion of keeping a cat in a high-performance car under the notion that a cat will kill performance, we have found this not to be true. Most "motorsport" cats flow rather well and really the loss in horsepower is often minimal. The other option is to install an external wastegate setup which is just like it sounds, a wastegate that is plumbed externally to the turbo.

These work very well, but of course there is a cost associated with this setup in extra parts and possibly fabrication depending on your desired setup and noise tolerance. Because this is a mechanical issue related to exhaust flow within certain physical parameters, a stand-alone boost controller or an upgraded EBCS will not help much or at all.

This is generally why we say that a high-flow cat in the system is better than no cat at all, emissions concerns aside. We have seen around 350whp and 350wtq on a car running a catted downpipe so really, I would just go with the catted version, COBB of course.

As far as doing a catback or a downpipe. If you have a stock downpipe and add a catback, you aren't really changing the VE of the engine at all, so it won't need a tune like a downpipe would. If you are looking for which part will make more power, a catback or a downpipe, do the downpipe. Then, add the catback or just a full turboback.

Travis
COBB Tuning

nice, thanx man.. so wut ur saying is that if i want my car to run right i should get a cat, cause right now im running no-cats, just a muffler

 

[COBB Tuning]

Run right is a relative term. If you are not boost creeping, then I see no reason to buy all new parts (unless they are COBB of course ). That said, you would be well advised to do some logs to see what is going on in your car. If you are seeing boost pressures climb at the tail end of the RPM range and or you hit boost cut, installing a downpipe with a cat would be a good idea.

Travis
COBB Tuning

 

[Nliiitend1]

Thanks for the posts Travis. (thumb)

Great information there, even with the shameless plugs.

 

[onelsono]

Run right is a relative term. If you are not boost creeping, then I see no reason to buy all new parts (unless they are COBB of course ). That said, you would be well advised to do some logs to see what is going on in your car. If you are seeing boost pressures climb at the tail end of the RPM range and or you hit boost cut, installing a downpipe with a cat would be a good idea.

Travis
COBB Tuning

yea well my car is geting dynoed today, cause i got my AP.so ill c then... acually the shop im doing it at is suppose to get me a cobb tuner to street tune my car, he is suppose to use my car to make a lot of different maps or sumthin, hes doing it free of charge..

 

[mikesul]

I appreciate the info, Travis.

 

[onelsono]

well my car got dynoed yesterday, stock it made 260whp and about 300wtq then we tryed doing the right map for my set up off of the AP but the car was knocking like crazyy the fuels and timming were going retarted after 8 pulls we stayed with only a stage 1 93 map, it knocked a tiny bit but it was the best set up, it made 300whp and 350wtq.. guy at the shop says i gotta do a fuelpump so i can run the stage 2 93 like im suppose to be, cant wait to insatll the pump, if i can make 320whp ill be happy

 

[unicef]

I agree I have a CP-E CAI and I'm running "Stage1+MSCAI2 93 v103", my A/F ratio is perfect as well as my LTFT & STFT. Along with no fuel cut. That being said, it seems every one of our cars are different.

Thanks, that's exactly what I was looking for. I realize mine might have issues, and I probably should have the recommended gear; but I am going to give the AP a try for sure now. If it doesn't work out, it will be no problem to sell. If it does work, then I'm very excited! Thank you.

 

[unicef]

Run right is a relative term. If you are not boost creeping, then I see no reason to buy all new parts (unless they are COBB of course ). That said, you would be well advised to do some logs to see what is going on in your car. If you are seeing boost pressures climb at the tail end of the RPM range and or you hit boost cut, installing a downpipe with a cat would be a good idea.

Travis
COBB Tuning

Thank you for the information TravisI appreciate the replies. Nice to know someone is still looking out for us!

 

[18psiWhiteMS3]

i love cobb, i have everything they offered for the ms3 besides for the sts