Starting Electrical? Problems?

[MasonMetcalfe]

Hey all

New P5 owner here, Had it for a month and love it, just finished changing the gas tank and ebrake lines.

but my first mystery is upon me. I'll walk up to the car and it seems fine, I put the key in and turn the key all the warning lights turn on like a normal start but then all the power goes dead, lights out, even the odometer goes blank. sometimes it has a T T on the odometer, sometimes not, sometimes the odometer slowly comes back to life sometimes it doesn't, if I give the fuse box a loving tap it brings the odometer back to life (if it didn't come back from the last key turn, sometimes not).

It seems the power is there up untill I get the key into the start position, but if I don't go all the way I can use the stereo etc.

Though even with the key out and I turn on the lights it kills the power.

So the exact symptoms aren't always exactly the same but all about the same. I've tested the voltage across the two battery terminals and im getting 12v.

I'm not so electrically inclined to this is a mystery to me.

This happened to me bout a week ago but it then magically stopped after letting it sit over night. At the moment there is just no power, I haven't even seen the odometer turn back on and there is no power even with the key out.

short somewhere?

it's an 2002 Manual P5.

Thanks for all your input!

 

[tweety2300]

Sounds like a short somewhere or bad connections I would start with the battery connectors.could also be a bad fuse or the ignition switch its self. I'm having similar problems but I just get a click when I go to start it but it hasn't done it in awhile (knock on wood). Either take a wire brush and clean the connectors really good or just buy new ones like I did I've never liked the cheap thin ones they put on there anyway. I'm not much on electrical stuff either I don't even like messing with it. I'm sure someone else will chime in with a better idea

 

[CheeseHelmet]

Anther person from Montreal, we're slowly taking over this board!

Are the battery's terminals clean? If not it could be as simple as that, clean off the terminals and try again.

Since you say there's no power at all, have a look at the fuses, if the main or ignition fuses are popped then you have a serious short somewhere.

When you say that turning the lights on kills the power, it sounds like a weak battery to me. Put your voltage meter across the battery, turn the lights on and record the voltage (to a couple decimal places, 12V is not precise enough to tell if the battery is shot). Get a before and after reading.

If the fuses are all still good (test them with the multimeter, a visual inspection isn't always enough), have someone give you a boost and see if the car starts. If so, it might just be the battery.

That being said, if it is just the battery you still might have a short somewhere or a light that's staying on which would have caused the battery to discharge.

 

[MasonMetcalfe]

hey, thanks for the replies!

ya MTL, so i've gotten more precise symptoms, if I put the key to acc all the normal things that work then still work fine etc. but if I turn the key to 'on' then it dies, (before it gets to start)
I tried to start with a boost last night but no luck.

 

[CheeseHelmet]

hey, thanks for the replies!

ya MTL, so i've gotten more precise symptoms, if I put the key to acc all the normal things that work then still work fine etc. but if I turn the key to 'on' then it dies, (before it gets to start)
I tried to start with a boost last night but no luck.

Ok, so you were mistaken about that thing with your lights?

If that's the case you're going to have to start eliminating the possibilities of where the short can be. Since it only seems to happen when you switch the key to "ON", I'm guessing there's something wrong with your starting system.

Before doing any electrical work, disconnect the negative terminal on the battery.

The easiest thing to try is removing power to the starter motor from the fusebox. Follow the positive wire from the battery to the fusebox, there you'll see two wires bolted to the fusebox's input, the wire that's not connected to the battery is for the starter. Take off the 10mm nut and remove the starter wire, leaving only the battery wire connected.

Now try starting the car (with the negative battery terminal reconnected), obviously it won't start but if the instrument panel stays lit then you know there's a short somewhere in the starter motor.

If that's not the problem, test the starter solenoid by disconnecting the ignition wire from the starter (you've gotta get under the car for this one) and try starting the car again. If the dash stays lit this time, it's the solenoid that's broken. Sadly you'll most likely have to replace the whole starter (check kijiji for a used one, I got one for $30).

If that's not the issue, you'll have to follow the ignition wire from the key switch, down to the clutch interlock switch, through the firewall, and finally to the starter. There's probably some insulation that rubbed off somewhere which is what's causing the short. I'd recommend you start looking from the starter end since that's probably where the wire is damaged.

 

[MasonMetcalfe]

another snow storm!

I haven't tried your suggestion yet, Don't have a garage so I'm restricted to fair weather fiddling on the car. I suspect this ones going to the mechanic to have my wallet emptied.

On another note, I just sat down in the car and turning on the headlights and they worked, turned them off, then put the key in and turned to on, did it's usual die routine, turned key off and removed, turned headlights on which now don't work and kill the power.

If i press the brake or clutch before i try the key no problem doesn't do anything anyway, but if i do the key to on then it dies and then take out key then press brake or clutch then that'll kill the car on it;s own. but If i let it sit for an hour then they won;t kill the car.

weird eh.

 

[CheeseHelmet]

If i press the brake or clutch before i try the key no problem doesn't do anything anyway, but if i do the key to on then it dies and then take out key then press brake or clutch then that'll kill the car on it;s own. but If i let it sit for an hour then they won;t kill the car.

^I didn't get any of that...

You gotta love the snow, I'd be out driving around if it wasn't for a bunch of bad exams I have to study for

 

[MasonMetcalfe]

well the car seems to start fine now?! i let it sit all day and it started up with a little trouble. let it idle for a minute then it stalled when i tried to get rolling, turned it over, started ok with a little struggle, drove around the block and let it idle for 10 minutes. and now it turns on and off as if there never was a problem.
ffs.

gremlins.

I've got exams too :/ was stuck ridding the 211 today cause of this problem. I'm @ concordia yourself?

 

[cclngthr]

Bad ignition switch? Also neutral safety switch (which is on the clutch pedal on manual cars)

It sounds as if the ignition switch has an intermittent short, and when you try to start it, the action of moving the key to the START position may lose contact inside the switch itself. If the switch on the clutch pedal is bad, power can be interrupted when power is going through that switch. It is under the dash on the clutch pedal assembly.

 

[CheeseHelmet]

well the car seems to start fine now?! i let it sit all day and it started up with a little trouble. let it idle for a minute then it stalled when i tried to get rolling, turned it over, started ok with a little struggle, drove around the block and let it idle for 10 minutes. and now it turns on and off as if there never was a problem.
ffs.

gremlins.

I've got exams too :/ was stuck ridding the 211 today cause of this problem. I'm @ concordia yourself?

That's really weird, did you get a CEL?

I'm at concordia as well

 

[MasonMetcalfe]

I got one when the car stalled, but I didn't think I just started it up. Also I don't know how to check the code even if I got teh CEL.

 

[CheeseHelmet]

I got one when the car stalled, but I didn't think I just started it up. Also I don't know how to check the code even if I got teh CEL.

Get yourself one of these: https://www.amazon.com (commissions earned)

It's cheaper to buy one of those than going to a garage to get it scanned.

I'm liking cclngthr's theory, it would explain your symptoms and it accounts for the lack of blown fuses that you'd see if there was a short. You can test the switch if you're handy with a multimeter, see page 09-21-4 of the service manual (get that here). Take a good look at pin 2A (and the associated wire), it could be that it's dirty or the wire's loose.

 

[MasonMetcalfe]

ordered myself the scanner, and ill take a look at the pin with a multi meter tomorow. tought according to the manual it would seem its pin 2b rather than 2a

 

[tweety2300]

If it is just a bad sensor or switch just push start it next time if your not home and stranded I've had to do it

 

[CheeseHelmet]

tought according to the manual it would seem its pin 2b rather than 2a

Oops, you're right. Nevertheless, both 2A and 2B should be checked to make sure everything's plugged in properly. You might have to try playing with the key a few times to get it to fail since it seems to be an intermittent issue.

 

[MasonMetcalfe]

I don't think the push start would work because all the juice dies when it's in on which I would have to be for the push start

 

[tweety2300]

Ya that was my bad. I didn't put 2 and 2 together don't flame . But atleast his issue is more straight forward I can play with my hood release in the car and itl start

 

[cclngthr]

Get yourself one of these: https://www.amazon.com (commissions earned)

It's cheaper to buy one of those than going to a garage to get it scanned.

I'm liking cclngthr's theory, it would explain your symptoms and it accounts for the lack of blown fuses that you'd see if there was a short. You can test the switch if you're handy with a multimeter, see page 09-21-4 of the service manual (get that here). Take a good look at pin 2A (and the associated wire), it could be that it's dirty or the wire's loose.

I have seen PLENTY of cars with bad neutral safety switches and bad switches on the clutch pedal. It sounds as if the ignition switch could be bad too.

If your key ring is heavy, that does wear out the ignition switch faster.

 

[P-Funk!]

No. Because the lock out you mention simply keeps the starter from turning (interupts power). The lights/dash/etc would remain on.

OP has another problem.

 

[MasonMetcalfe]

ya, I don't it's the neutral safety switch because of the reason stated here.

maybe a short in the ignition dunno.

just got the tester in the mail today, going to crack it out tomorow and see what i can find.