Staggered Tire Suggestions Needed

[livelyjay]

Instead of bumping MacMSPs DS thread, I figured I'd just throw my question out there in my own thread.

If I win my region's road tire class in '08, which isn't a far fetched idea, I'm going to move into DS and buy some R-comps for 2009. I like all the ideas being thrown around in the "MSP in DS" thread, but I want to know your guys' opinions. For the upcoming season I'm considering running a staggered setup in street tire, just so I can get a feel for it before moving to R-comps. I already have four 225/45-17 Azenis, but Falken doesn't make the Azenis in a 245/40-17, they only have 235/40-17 and 245/45-17.

What do you guys think I should do? Just run with what I have? Buy the 235/40-17 and run those up front? Buy the Hankook Ventus Rs2 Z212 in 245/40-17 and run those up front?

I'm thinking the 235 Azenis might be a the best idea, because then I get a feel for slightly staggered tires, and I should be able to run those all year without swapping the wheels at every event.

 

[TinmanMS6]

I'd just run what you've got. R-comps are going to be so different it won't make much difference.

 

[livelyjay]

R-comps are that different huh? Guess I'll just save my money then, unless other people have a different opinion.

 

[TinmanMS6]

If you've never run R-comps before, you're in for a treat. They're that different.

 

[livelyjay]

I've never run anything stickier than the Azenis, just because I've never been able to afford R-comps. Another question I have, is it seems like everyone is partial to the Hoosiers, but what about the BFGoodrich g-Force R1? TireRack seems to think they are better tires than the Hoosiers.

 

[aMaff]

The Hoosier's pretty much been the standard for a few seasons now, so everyone swears by them. Obviously it's an application by application basis, but the R1s may be good. I've only read a few things on them, but they seem to be good.

 

[moxnix]

With the staggered tire setup of 245/40 front and 225/45 rear your OD's are still very close (F P245/40ZR17 = 24.5" R P225/45ZR17 = 24.7") if you go with a even shorter tire up front (F P235/40/17 = 24.4" R 225/45/17 = 25.0") I think you might start to get even more ABS problems from the different sized tires.

Personally If I was looking at new race tires for the MSP I would be looking at the new Kumho V710 sizes of 215/40/17 for a nice short tire that is a little skinnier that I would like but would fit with any rims on the car or the 225/45/17 (would need +50 rims and still may rub) and would not be running the staggered sizes. The 225/45/17 tires are available now while the other size is still coming soon. With the kumho assuming that the new compound and construction are as long lasting as the old one you will get a lot more runs out of the tires than you will out of hoosier A6's.

I would not mix different compounds of high performance tires just for the stagger because I think you would get more differences between compounds than you would notice with the differing sizes.

If you want a street tire staggered setup I would look at the new Toyo R1R it should be available in 245/40/17 and 225/45/17 "soon".

 

[livelyjay]

I didn't even think about the ABS issue, so thanks for bringing it up.

I'll look into the Kumhos, but I figured the staggered setup would be better since I don't want to have any toe as this is my daily car. My current rims are +45mm offset, but when I buy the new rims and tires I'll be going with +50mm. I like that they are cheaper than the Hoosiers in the same size. Would you suggest heat cycling the Kumho V710?

Since I'm going to be spending quite a bit of money for 2009 season on wheels and tires I figure I'll just stick with the non-staggered Azenis setup I have now and save my money. I have a feeling those Toyo R1R will be forbidden from SCCA Street classes this year just like the Yokohama ADVAN Neovas where for this season.

 

[moxnix]

Are the Bridgestone RE-01R's banned? They are available in those sizes also. It is hard to say with a local class what will be banned tire wise.

I would not bother paying for heat cycling.

What are the rules for your local class? For SCCA stock class the +45 rims would not be legal.

If you want the cheapest way I would look for used 225/45/17 V710 tires. They are currently used for the MX-5 cup and you can pick up used sets of 4 tires on ebay for around $250 shipped with only a few heat cycles on them.

Toe is fairly simple to adjust on your own for the event and just set it back before you leave.

 

[livelyjay]

Yes I know I am running illegal wheels and +50 is the stock legal limit. If I can find a good deal on Kosei K1-TS before the season starts I will buy and switch the Azenis on there. If not, then so be it. When I move into the competitive and nationally recognized class I will be stock compliant all around. There's a guy on SCCA forums selling the wheels and Hoosier A6's for $1200 shipped, but I can't drop that kind of money right now.

 

[moxnix]

Other decently light stock legal wheels for when you go looking are Kazera KZ-V +50 (17ish lbs), Stock MX-5 wheels +55 (17ish lbs)

Depending on your tire size you may need spacers with +55 wheels. I needed spacers to run the 235/40/17 RA-1's in the front and I rub both the strut and the fender in the rear with the +50 wheels and 225/45/17 R6 rears. In the front with the 245/40/17 I rub the fender and I also gouge chunks out of the tire if I try to turn to sharp with them on.

I happened to luck into a deal on my K1-TS's or I would be running one of the options above.

 

[livelyjay]

How the hell do you rub with 225/45-17? They must not really be 225's then, because I run 225 Azenis in the rear on +45 wheels with no problems in the rear.

 

[moxnix]

How the hell do you rub with 225/45-17?

Race tires tend to be a little wider than your regular street tires.

Section width
Hoosier 9.7"
Azenis 8.9"

Tread Width
Hoosier 8.8"
Azenis 8.3"

You can actually see a little groove of orange on the tires from where they rub the inside fender lip in the rear.

 

[Auto-Xer]

I have a feeling those Toyo R1R will be forbidden from SCCA Street classes this year just like the Yokohama ADVAN Neovas where for this season.

Huh? The top STX cars at Nationals were on AD07 Neovas (at least Fenter's WRX and the Wrolson BMW were...). Most of the top STS cars were on the Bridgestones, however...Kevin McCormick on Kumhos was the exception as I recall.

The new R1R is squarely in my crosshairs for '08--225/45-15--I have no fear of legality so long as they are released in time for our consumption (4/1/08). Both Toyo and the New Kumhos are being brought in to the US market for the purspose of taking a share of the auto-x street tire pie away from Yoko and Bridgestone...

 

[moxnix]

Huh? The top STX cars at Nationals were on AD07 Neovas (at least Fenter's WRX and the Wrolson BMW were...). Most of the top STS cars were on the Bridgestones, however...Kevin McCormick on Kumhos was the exception as I recall.

The new R1R is squarely in my crosshairs for '08--225/45-15--I have no fear of legality so long as they are released in time for our consumption (4/1/08). Both Toyo and the New Kumhos are being brought in to the US market for the purspose of taking a share of the auto-x street tire pie away from Yoko and Bridgestone...

I assume he is referencing a local street tire paxed class since he is talking about running DS and that locally they banned those tires this year not at the national level or for street touring classes. For some reason I was thinking that McCormick was a contract driver for kumho? If that is the case that could be why he is still running them.

I thought I heard some people are already getting some sizes of the R1R's on sccaforums?

 

[Auto-Xer]

That's odd. We run a HUGE street tire class in both clubs in Milwaukee...anything that is legal in the ST classes Nationally is OK to run.

I have not looked to closely at the R1R availiblity yet--but it's cool if they are 'out' already...I'm not gonna worry til March or so. I have a fair bit of 'finishing' to do on my ZX2 before wheels and tires get to the top of the to-do list.

 

[livelyjay]

My bad, I misspoke earlier about the forbidden tire. For some reason I remembered it being the Neova's, but now that I look back at the rule book the forbidden street tires are the Pirelli P Zero Corsa.

 

[livelyjay]

Depending on your tire size you may need spacers with +55 wheels.

Since you mentioned spacers, I might as well ask the question here and now. I'm thinking to save a few bucks for 2009 season I might just use the stock wheels, which we all know are +55 (then I could get the tires now and get some practice on them during test-n-tune days).

Now, could I run a 1/4" or 5mm spacer and still keep the stock studs?

If I have to change studs, which ones do I need to get and can I install them myself (I have air tools)?

 

[moxnix]

I did not feel comfortable trying to put 5mm spacers on the car with the stock studs. I used ARP studs from the camaro but I forget the part number. I think your best bet would be to get the spacers and studs from NSN Motorsports(Turfburn).
http://www.nsnmotorsports.com/index.php?cPath=21_80
I just used generic ebay spacers but I think the NSN ones are a better spacer since they are hubcentric. I only put the spacers on the front wheels (235/40/17 RA-1's fit in the rear without spacers on the stock wheels)

You also need open ended lug nuts if the studs are as long as the ones I had. Mine stuck out of the wheel a good ways.

As for installing them I did the front in the parking lot at the place I was living at the time. I just used a hammer to bang out the old ones and used a impact gun with some washers and a lug nut I did not care about to draw the new one in (try searching on here about how to replace a broken stud)

 

[low_psi]

I'd buy a set of 235s and use spacers up front if you need to cure some understeer. If you're going to spend a bunch of money in '09, don't spend more than you have to this season.