Safeguard

[John at J&S]

Linux:

I kinda sorta remember something about adding some extra software for you to play with. Was it the mid-range retard that we are loading into our Focus units? I forget the specs we discussed. Oh, and maybe raise the TPS modifier trip point?

Here's an explanation on how it works. Maybe you guys can come up with specs more suited to this application:

On the 1ch/2ch units, mode switches three and four are normally used to configure the unit to work on one of four ignition types. If we know in advance the vehicle type, those switches could be used in another way.

For example, we could program a mid-range RPM retard/advance function. In our Focus application, assuming the boost exceeds 4psi, the unit retards the timing, starting at 2500 RPM, and increases linearly with RPM, maxing out at 3500 RPM. At 4000 RPM, the unit starts re-advancing, and is back to the stock setting by 5000 RPM.

Switches 3 and 4 let you select (for example) 0, 2, 4, or 6 degrees of mid-range retard.

These RPM start/stop points and amounts are only an example. They are not user programmable, but I can change them when I program the unit. If you choose different break points, keep in mind that the ramp up/ramp down delta RPM must be equal.

For example, you could specify start retard at 4250, reach max retard at 5000, start re-advance at 6000, and back to stock at 6750. In this case, the delta is 750 RPM.

The mid-range retard is also modulated by MAP. If boost is less han 2psi, no RPM retard. If greater than 4 psi, full calculated amount. Between 2 and 4 psi, retard is proportionally less.

 

[perfworks]

Linux:

I kinda sorta remember something about adding some extra software for you to play with. Was it the mid-range retard that we are loading into our Focus units? I forget the specs we discussed. Oh, and maybe raise the TPS modifier trip point?

Here's an explanation on how it works. Maybe you guys can come up with specs more suited to this application:

On the 1ch/2ch units, mode switches three and four are normally used to configure the unit to work on one of four ignition types. If we know in advance the vehicle type, those switches could be used in another way.

For example, we could program a mid-range RPM retard/advance function. In our Focus application, assuming the boost exceeds 4psi, the unit retards the timing, starting at 2500 RPM, and increases linearly with RPM, maxing out at 3500 RPM. At 4000 RPM, the unit starts re-advancing, and is back to the stock setting by 5000 RPM.

Switches 3 and 4 let you select (for example) 0, 2, 4, or 6 degrees of mid-range retard.

These RPM start/stop points and amounts are only an example. They are not user programmable, but I can change them when I program the unit. If you choose different break points, keep in mind that the ramp up/ramp down delta RPM must be equal.

For example, you could specify start retard at 4250, reach max retard at 5000, start re-advance at 6000, and back to stock at 6750. In this case, the delta is 750 RPM.



The mid-range retard is also modulated by MAP. If boost is less han 2psi, no RPM retard. If greater than 4 psi, full calculated amount. Between 2 and 4 psi, retard is proportionally less.

This is a fantastic unit for any level of boost or power.
My 2 1/2 cents

 

[Little Beavis]

I agree! Love it!

 

[AutoBox]

is there an application that works with the msp? just wondering since i have only seen mp3-t owners respondin to this thread recently.....and there seems to be a difference between mp3/p5 and msp ecu's

 

[perfworks]

is there an application that works with the msp? just wondering since i have only seen mp3-t owners respondin to this thread recently.....and there seems to be a difference between mp3/p5 and msp ecu's

Msp ECU's are not really different. The mapping is more diverse being that timing curves and fuel curves are completely different for boosted vehicles.
It would just require you to pay more attention to setting the retard function and when to have it let off again.
In other words "piggyback" mapping for one car and then the MSP will NOT work. They have completely different load values for fuel and ignition.

 

[AutoBox]

no, i understand that im sorry if my question was not specfic..i was wondering about the unit workin with the msp with the recent issues of gettin piggybacks to work with the msp....closed/open loop issues, etc issues ..... ???

 

[YP5 Toronto]

The J&S has one "primary" function --> to retard timing.

this is triggered by:

1) when knock is detected

AND/OR

2) at a predetermined PSI/RPM

users have flexibility in determining how much timing is pulled out.


In short...this is not interfacing with any of the closed/open loop issues. This unit is trying to influence any of the inputs the ECU reads...its merely "budding in" and retarding the timing.

 

[LinuxRacr]

Yeah, in short it monitors for knock and retards if your setup is not keeping knock away. It does active boost retard based on psi, and now RPM to keep the knock retard from activating in the 1st place. If it still sees knock, the safeguard kicks in and retards even more. It does this by intercepting the ingnition signals from the ECU before it hits the coils.

 

[YP5 Toronto]

Engine Rebuild = $2000+ USD

J&S = $570 USD (includes knock bosch sensor)

The J&S can easily be resold, it can come with you to your next car, you can truelly get to running higher PSI daily...safely.... without having to put in race fuel... this is a perfect example of the work and research done "pre-msp".

This would be one of those situations --> "I told you so".

 

[DooMer_MP3]

Hmm. Maybe for my needs (5-6psi) a Wagner FMIC kit, FMU, and J&S are all I really need to prevent a blown up motor. The MP3 ECU is always the thing that scares me. Nobody knows how much the timing is advanced, but FP did notice knock at higher RPMS with the MP3 ECU. So many thoughts. Luckily I have months before I actually turbo and can see what happens .

Chris

 

[AutoBox]

i was wonderin...say i pick up the safeguard....can i tap the bosch sensor with a wideband and have both workin off the single sensor?

 

[Little Beavis]

The J&S will work with the MSP. It simply intercepts the coil signals and delays them based upon the "need for retard".

As for the bosch sensor, we're talking about a bosch knock sensor, not an oxygen sensor. Different things, but nice try!

 

[YP5 Toronto]

no...there are two sensors.

1) Knock Sensor (think of it as a microphone)

2) O2 sensor

Forget about the O2 sensor..... go with a wideband.

 

[AutoBox]

DUH!!! didnt notice you were refering to a knock sensor......ill go now (hides in self pity)

oh and on the topic of wideband....i found a wideband with a display that is red digital display and looks like a turbo timer...but i cant find it again...not sure if it was techedge or not....any one have a clue which one im talkin about?

 

[igdrasil]

Do not cut the factory TPS wire. The J&S TPS modifier taps into the TPS signal. When it activates, it overpowers the signal, and pulls it up to 4.3v.

for what

 

[John at J&S]

You can have a few pounds of boost at low throttle settings, and the ECU will still be in closed loop operation, tryng to keep the A/F at 14.7:1. Not good.

Some ECU's will go open loop based on throttle position. The TPS modifier circuit will pull the TPS signal up to 4.3v at a preset boost level, and hopefully trick the ECU into going open loop.

Linnux has tested it, and it does work. I have his set to turn on at 0psi.

 

[perfworks]

The J&S has one "primary" function --> to retard timing.

this is triggered by:

1) when knock is detected

AND/OR

2) at a predetermined PSI/RPM

users have flexibility in determining how much timing is pulled out.


In short...this is not interfacing with any of the closed/open loop issues. This unit is trying to influence any of the inputs the ECU reads...its merely "budding in" and retarding the timing.

This is exactly right.
Great post

 

[perfworks]

You can have a few pounds of boost at low throttle settings, and the ECU will still be in closed loop operation, tryng to keep the A/F at 14.7:1. Not good.

Some ECU's will go open loop based on throttle position. The TPS modifier circuit will pull the TPS signal up to 4.3v at a preset boost level, and hopefully trick the ECU into going open loop.

Linnux has tested it, and it does work. I have his set to turn on at 0psi.

This works very well. I have done it on other vehicles and with other piggybacks.
The good thing about your unit is you can just splice it in. And it bumps the voltage up. With some other analog controllers you need to cut and run it thru the software. Both ways are beneficial to getting the job done. Depending on the application you may not need to retard timing that much. The fueling is really the key then.

 

[DooMer_MP3]

So is this most likely what the MPI Tuner does to "kick it into open loop"? When it sees a certain boost level, it ups the TPS voltage?

Chris

 

[perfworks]

So is this most likely what the MPI Tuner does to "kick it into open loop"? When it sees a certain boost level, it ups the TPS voltage?

Chris

They had stated NO. Maybe they will let you guys know. It isnt really a big deal to tell , it isnt a secret or anything. We have been saying this for a year now along with FM that has been saying it for three that you use the O2 modifier for open loop "like" conditions.