RR Racing Inserts vs. AWR Motor Mounts

ProtoType5

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2002 22A P5 and 2007 TR MS3
So, I'm looking around at new mounts. Anyone have experience with the RR Racing inserts??? They don't really say how stiff the mounts will become...I'm not planning on going Turbo, or increasing the power in the engine any more than it already is, so I'm leaning towards just using the inserts to cut down on the wheel hop and transitions from "on gas" to "off gas". I know the AWR are probably a better product with better results, but they may be overkill for my daily driver credentials. I tried to search and didn't see any information comparing the two.
 
I have heard decent things about the inserts. I would search for past threads on rr-racing inserts, as these were discussed recently.

Just an fyi, AWR stuff is on sale through tomorrow with street unit. AWR does the front and rear mounts, as well as the side inserts as of a few months ago.

There are 3 types of stiffness witth the mounts. 95, 88, and 70. 95 is the stiffest, 70 is the softest. I bought a used 88, and thought my car was gonna fall apart. I sold it weeks later. I miss the great throttle response though. Turns out, I got EGR issues still, and just tonight picked up PB Blaster to clean it this weekend.

Anyways, back to your question. Most likely, the softest mount, the 70 mount would be your best bet for street driving if you went with the AWR mount.
 
I have my stock mount FS if you want to put the inserts in it first. That way if things don't go right or it takes a while to get the insert in you can slap on your stock mount to drive somewhere. Just putting it out there, $15.
Good luck, I am sure both options would be good.
 
I just ordered the RR-Racing front motor mount inserts a couple of weeks ago. They were inexpensive and came in a reasonable amount of time. I just spent about 30 minutes tonight putting them in the stock mount.

Bottom line - this is a no-brainer. I could hold the stock mount in one hand and move the inner metal sleeve about 1/2" each way by hand - that's how soft it is.

The inserts are cake to install. Loosen the nut for the bolt through the bushing first (17mm). Loosen the two nuts holding the mount to the subframe on the very bottom of the car (17mm again). Take everything loose remembering or marking front-to-back orientation. Pull it out of the car, I had to clip one of the rubber nubs sticking out of my stock bushing to be even with the other one and fit in the inserts. The inserts have mating voids to the bushing nubs - two on one side and one on the other - so it's easy to get orientation right. Push the inserts in (I didn't have ANY trouble with this - some others have used grease or WD) and put it all back together. You can see pictures of the mount and inserts in various states of assembly here. Sorry, I didn't feel like taking my rather expensive digital slr out under the car, so I didn't get pics of the mount in the car. Plus, it's easy enough to find.

Impressions:
1. Vibration: So far I've hardly noticed any difference from before. I ran in a lot of different conditions including idle with A/C. This is NOT a problem, although wintertime will be a better test.
2. Wheel Hop: Anybody that says this will help with wheel hop is on crack. Wheel hop is a function of the suspension geometry, masses, and spring weights, maybe body stiffness. It shows up when a tire spins, but is a result of the things I've just mentioned. I designed racing suspensions in college and have worked as an automotive suspension design engineer for the last seven years (2 years in Germany). This insert does not / can not do anything for wheel hop. The remedy for wheel hop is to put in a limited slip differential so the wheel doesn't spin in the first place. Otherwise you'll have to look at the spring/mass/damper equations for this suspension and figure out how to critically damp the wheel by changing the shocks and springs.
3. Shifting: Here's the huge improvement over stock. Everybody that drives a P5 knows how badly the engine rocks during agressive shifts. First there's the mush you get trying to launch in first, then the pulsing when you engage your next gears. These RR Racing inserts don't eliminate that, but I'd say they're an 85% improvement. Heel-toe downshifts are clean now, and the 6000RPM shift from 1st to 2nd doesn't make you feel like your engine might drop out of the car.
4. Surging at low speeds in 1st gear: Maybe improved a little, but not solved. There's something going on with engine calibration here. When you're off the gas idling in gear and you press the gas pedal, the engine first dies and then picks up acceleration. I'm sure it's a "lesser of two evils" thing where Mazda had to make emissions or facilitate cold weather starts or something. No help here from the inserts.

So the way I see it, this thing is cheap, easy to install, I see no downsides, and you get much improved shifting. Everybody on this forum should have these installed (except for those with more agressive mounts like AWR).
 
I have the RR-racing both front and rear.

1. Vibration...
This was originally annoying, but they got softer over time. Its only slightly noticeable during idel.

2. Wheel hop...
Maybe its in my head, but I had horrible wheel hop before I put these in. Even launching from 1k rpms caused it. Now I have none that I can notice.

I thought wheel hop could be caused by engine movement. You are the first person I have ever heard who said otherwise.

3. 1st-> 2nd is much nicer. Every other gear is the same.

4. Definetly less bucking when you let off at high rpms without putting in the clutch.

Rear install was a royal PITA for someone like me who has little experience. Took me well over 8 hrs. Front took 15 minutes.
 
awsmp5 said:
just wondering, why does the rear take so long?

have you got under your car and looked? you have to drop the front subframe just to get to them. that will take a bit of time. it's probably easier when the car is on a lift...
 
ohh alright.maybe i'll jsut get the front one's then... or i think i've heard thats a bad idea too
 
don't forget about NSN, they sell mounts as well

the only downside right now is that there is a waiting list
 
jerkamiah said:
2. Wheel Hop: Anybody that says this will help with wheel hop is on crack. Wheel hop is a function of the suspension geometry, masses, and spring weights, maybe body stiffness. It shows up when a tire spins, but is a result of the things I've just mentioned. I designed racing suspensions in college and have worked as an automotive suspension design engineer for the last seven years (2 years in Germany). This insert does not / can not do anything for wheel hop. The remedy for wheel hop is to put in a limited slip differential so the wheel doesn't spin in the first place

Well, then I must be hitting the crack pipe rather hard.

One quick glance at this image will show you why it helps wheel hop:

motm_it.gif


In short, with the factory motor mounts, the engine would jump all over the place. Big time lash.

Putting in a solid AWR front motor mount alone significantly helped reduce my wheel hop. Moreso than my $1500 Quaife LSD, that's for sure.
 
nealric said:
2. Wheel hop...
Maybe its in my head, but I had horrible wheel hop before I put these in. Even launching from 1k rpms caused it. Now I have none that I can notice.

It's definitely not in your head. Don't let jerkamiah lead you to beleive that the gains are psychosomatic.
 
(stoned) Or...maybe I'm the one on crack.

I'll buy that engine rocking can cause wheel hop. Tire gets traction, motor rocks backwards then hits hard stop, tire breaks free, motor rocks back forward again, repeat.

We had our engines hard mounted (no bushings) to the tube frame in the race cars and still had some wheel hop. That was because the natural frequency of the suspension and the frame were too similar.

Sorry for the misinformation.

My P5 certainly still hops like crazy, but I just have the front so the back is still pretty soft. (burnout)
 
jerkamiah said:
(stoned) Or...maybe I'm the one on crack.

I'll buy that engine rocking can cause wheel hop. Tire gets traction, motor rocks backwards then hits hard stop, tire breaks free, motor rocks back forward again, repeat.

Exactly.

We had our engines hard mounted (no bushings) to the tube frame in the race cars and still had some wheel hop. That was because the natural frequency of the suspension and the frame were too similar.

What kind of crazy car was this anyway?

Sorry for the misinformation.

My P5 certainly still hops like crazy, but I just have the front so the back is still pretty soft. (burnout)

Going with an even harder front will help a lot, but yeah, the rear and the passenger side mounts will help.

BTW, someone needs to make that burnout smiley wheel hop. :) LOL.
 
jerkamiah said:
(stoned) Or...maybe I'm the one on crack.

I'll buy that engine rocking can cause wheel hop. Tire gets traction, motor rocks backwards then hits hard stop, tire breaks free, motor rocks back forward again, repeat.

We had our engines hard mounted (no bushings) to the tube frame in the race cars and still had some wheel hop. That was because the natural frequency of the suspension and the frame were too similar.

Sorry for the misinformation.

My P5 certainly still hops like crazy, but I just have the front so the back is still pretty soft. (burnout)
dude...holy crap, someone on this forum admits it when they're wrong!? Dude, I'd give you rep if it was working lol. Mad props to you...and for building "racing suspensions." But yeah, that's why the P5 gets such aweful wheel hop. Throttle modulation is your friend :p.

So...wtf kinda car were you building that had solid mounts?
 
i will second or third or whatever that the motor mounts reduce wheel hop big time. i did my mounts one at a time over the course of a year(the rear mounts a b****). the front mount reduces hop and the second even more. hop is probably 75-80% gone now. vibrations are less than moderate once they break in. you get the most vibrations when starting in first though cabin noise is increased.
 
i'am with NJP5Guy on this one, the only difference is that i did both mounts at the same time, it felt like i was driving a different car (omg)
 

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