RDX vs CX-5?

For 2016 MY, Acura finally announced the new 290hp direct injection 3.5L i-VTEC V-6 and new 9-speed automatic transmission available on more expensive models. But I still don't see Honda is giving up on timing belt and VCM which against the logic of better reliability、longevity and less maintenance.

The only bright spot is Honda is in favor of using traditional AT with more gears than CVT on Acura!

The 9 speed Acura is using is getting some attention as a very good transmission. And it is now available on the new Honda Pilot.

What concerns do you have with timing belts? I agree it is more consumer friendly to use a timing chain, but that doesn't mean you are off the hook for the big 100K service. They also aren't immune to problems.

Timing belts are expensive to replace, but there are other important items replaced during this time, such as the water pump and tensioner. As you know, 3/4 of the battle with a timing belt is getting to it. This is why people replace the water pump with the belt, so as not to repeat that labor charge, just incase. And while the CX-5 has a timing chain, does that mean that the water pump is also good for 'life'? Because if at the 120K mile interval when you go to change the coolant, if you are also expected to change the water pump, you will be looking at a bill just shy of what it would cost to do a timing belt. Besides, timing chains aren't immune to needing new tensioners. Again, a job that requires costly labor.

I've owned multiple cars with timing belts and have had no problems changing the belts at the recommended interval.
 
Timing Belt or Timing Chain?

What concerns do you have with timing belts? I agree it is more consumer friendly to use a timing chain, but that doesn't mean you are off the hook for the big 100K service. They also aren't immune to problems.

Timing belts are expensive to replace, but there are other important items replaced during this time, such as the water pump and tensioner. As you know, 3/4 of the battle with a timing belt is getting to it. This is why people replace the water pump with the belt, so as not to repeat that labor charge, just incase. And while the CX-5 has a timing chain, does that mean that the water pump is also good for 'life'? Because if at the 120K mile interval when you go to change the coolant, if you are also expected to change the water pump, you will be looking at a bill just shy of what it would cost to do a timing belt. Besides, timing chains aren't immune to needing new tensioners. Again, a job that requires costly labor.

I've owned multiple cars with timing belts and have had no problems changing the belts at the recommended interval.
I believe using the timing belt or timing chain is really an attitude issue by the car manufactures. Rubber belt, not like the metal chain, is hard to predict its life. Do you need a new belt when your Honda RDX is 8 years old but has only 60K miles? As we all know, like tires, life of timing belt is affected by the age in addition to the usage. If you have timing chain, this is a non issue. Timing chain can also be designed to last for the lifetime of your engine as they both are made of metals. Even if you have issues, it won't break suddenly like timing belt. You have time to react and fix it, whereas on timing-belt equipped engines, this sudden break will be disastrous as all engines are now interference engines. Timing belt was used mainly on OHC engines in the early days when the engine is non-interference, hence if the belt breaks, it doesn't matter. When engines became interference, timing belt should be obsolete.

Honda normally has reliable timing belt system if you do the replacement by the book. But I've still heard some incident of breaking earlier than specified schedule. And some owners simply just ignore the maintenance until the disaster happens as there is no symptom or noise before belt breaks. If you own certain brands such as VW or Audi, the timing belt has been breaking earlier than scheduled 105,000 miles more frequently. And many owners found out the replacement schedule might have to be 60,000 miles according to the factory sticker inside of engine bay!

As the necessity of water pump replacement when you're replacing the timing belt, that's because the water pump is driving by timing belt. If pump breaks, it causes chain reaction to break the timing belt, bend many valves and may even damage the positions. Hence people replace the water pump when they replace the timing belt, and all components timing belt touches! But if your car has a timing chain, none of above worries exists! Timing chain system is almost like a fail-safe design unless the chain itself breaks suddenly which is highly unlikely. Water pump will be driven by serpentine belt which is easy to replace if it ever fails, and it won't cause a chain-reaction and become a catastrophic disaster. Yeah, timing chain system doesn't immune to problems, especially the plastic tentioner used by many car manufactures with now watery thin oil in the name of fuel economy. But if you change oil regularly, a timing chain system rarely has issues and needs any attentions. I've heard many Nissan cars which switched to timing chain in early days and accumulated over 200K miles without any issues. As I mentioned, Honda is the only car manufacture insists of using the timing belt on its V6 even though all other car manufactures, even very conservative US automakers, have switched. They all can see the benefits of using timing chain with little extra added cost, but not Honda.

This is simply an attitude issue. Honda believes using the timing belt on its V6 is fine even though it's not a fail-safe design and requires routine expensive and unnecessary maintenance. Honda did switch belt to chain on its I4's. But for some uncharacteristic reasons by Honda, they simply just refuse to do the same on its V6's. On the other hand, they spent money on an illogic and problematic cylinder-deactivation VCM system to save little MPG on the highway which is now having problems and causing class-action lawsuit.
 
The 9 speed Acura is using is getting some attention as a very good transmission. And it is now available on the new Honda Pilot.

What concerns do you have with timing belts? I agree it is more consumer friendly to use a timing chain, but that doesn't mean you are off the hook for the big 100K service. They also aren't immune to problems.

Timing belts are expensive to replace, but there are other important items replaced during this time, such as the water pump and tensioner. As you know, 3/4 of the battle with a timing belt is getting to it. This is why people replace the water pump with the belt, so as not to repeat that labor charge, just incase. And while the CX-5 has a timing chain, does that mean that the water pump is also good for 'life'? Because if at the 120K mile interval when you go to change the coolant, if you are also expected to change the water pump, you will be looking at a bill just shy of what it would cost to do a timing belt. Besides, timing chains aren't immune to needing new tensioners. Again, a job that requires costly labor.

I've owned multiple cars with timing belts and have had no problems changing the belts at the recommended interval.
You mean the same 9 speed Chrysler uses? Yeah, it gets attention alright.
http://wot.motortrend.com/1412_honda_issues_stop_sale_on_nine_speed_2015_acura_tlx_v_6.html

ZF transmissions are junk based on the number of issues they can't get away from. The 8 speed in the Chryslers is another failure.

Chrysler is using them. That's a "clue".
 
I believe using the timing belt or timing chain is really an attitude issue by the car manufactures. Rubber belt, not like the metal chain, is hard to predict its life. Do you need a new belt when your Honda RDX is 8 years old but has only 60K miles? As we all know, like tires, life of timing belt is affected by the age in addition to the usage. If you have timing chain, this is a non issue. Timing chain can also be designed to last for the lifetime of your engine as they both are made of metals. Even if you have issues, it won't break suddenly like timing belt. You have time to react and fix it, whereas on timing-belt equipped engines, this sudden break will be disastrous as all engines are now interference engines. Timing belt was used mainly on OHC engines in the early days when the engine is non-interference, hence if the belt breaks, it doesn't matter. When engines became interference, timing belt should be obsolete.

Honda normally has reliable timing belt system if you do the replacement by the book. But I've still heard some incident of breaking earlier than specified schedule. And some owners simply just ignore the maintenance until the disaster happens as there is no symptom or noise before belt breaks. If you own certain brands such as VW or Audi, the timing belt has been breaking earlier than scheduled 105,000 miles more frequently. And many owners found out the replacement schedule might have to be 60,000 miles according to the factory sticker inside of engine bay!

As the necessity of water pump replacement when you're replacing the timing belt, that's because the water pump is driving by timing belt. If pump breaks, it causes chain reaction to break the timing belt, bend many valves and may even damage the positions. Hence people replace the water pump when they replace the timing belt, and all components timing belt touches! But if your car has a timing chain, none of above worries exists! Timing chain system is almost like a fail-safe design unless the chain itself breaks suddenly which is highly unlikely. Water pump will be driven by serpentine belt which is easy to replace if it ever fails, and it won't cause a chain-reaction and become a catastrophic disaster. Yeah, timing chain system doesn't immune to problems, especially the plastic tentioner used by many car manufactures with now watery thin oil in the name of fuel economy. But if you change oil regularly, a timing chain system rarely has issues and needs any attentions. I've heard many Nissan cars which switched to timing chain in early days and accumulated over 200K miles without any issues. As I mentioned, Honda is the only car manufacture insists of using the timing belt on its V6 even though all other car manufactures, even very conservative US automakers, have switched. They all can see the benefits of using timing chain with little extra added cost, but not Honda.

This is simply an attitude issue. Honda believes using the timing belt on its V6 is fine even though it's not a fail-safe design and requires routine expensive and unnecessary maintenance. Honda did switch belt to chain on its I4's. But for some uncharacteristic reasons by Honda, they simply just refuse to do the same on its V6's. On the other hand, they spent money on an illogic and problematic cylinder-deactivation VCM system to save little MPG on the highway which is now having problems and causing class-action lawsuit.

Honda makes many stupid decisions. In fact, I think all they MAKE are stupid decisions...

...Did not evolve the S2000
...Did not evolve the NSX
...Their entry into the pickup truck world was almost like a planned failure, and it didn't have to be. Look at Toyota...
...They Accord Coupe V6 has VERY POOR SALES, and yet they designed an entire platform around it, as it shares much less with the Sedan than one would think. Yet they made it a point to kill their RWD sports cars...
...The Pilot now looks much like a minivan. I think this will kill sales to certain demographics, and not do much to enhance them to others.
 
It's obvious the issue is power. I'd look at the Forester 2.0XT.
And willing to take the risk of oil burning???
I don't know any 2.0XT owners who have that issue. The 2.0 is a great motor. My friend's BRZ is doing great and he flogs that car. I'd buy a2.0XT in a heartbeat.
Consumer Reports finds some newer cars burn too much oil

"Several engines from three manufacturers were the main offenders, according to the magazine. Those include Audi's 2.0-liter turbocharged four cylinder and 3.0-liter V6; BMW's 4.8 liter V8 and 4.4 liter twin-turbo V8; and Subaru's 3.6 liter six-cylinder and 2.0- and 2.5-liter four-cylinder engines. The Subarus burned less oil than the others.
Affected models include Audi's A3, A4, A5, A6 and Q5; BMW's 5, 6, and 7 Series and X5; and the Subaru Outback, Legacy, Forester and Impreza.
"
 
...The Pilot now looks much like a minivan. I think this will kill sales to certain demographics, and not do much to enhance them to others.

'16 Pilot is about exciting as a Mitsubishi Outlander

2014_mitsubishi_outlander_sideview.jpg


2016-Honda-Pilot-2-A-e1432907873225.jpg
 
Timing belts, done correctly have several very good points. TBs are quieter, use less HP and do not have the tendency to shear oil. The down side is it is a SCHEDUALLED maintenance item that is costly, especially on a V DOHC engine. You can ignore a WP or chain guide until it leaks or is noisy but, if you ignore changing a TB, you can lose an engine. Ed
 
The 9 speed Acura is using is getting some attention as a very good transmission. And it is now available on the new Honda Pilot.
You mean the same 9 speed Chrysler uses? Yeah, it gets attention alright.
http://wot.motortrend.com/1412_honda_issues_stop_sale_on_nine_speed_2015_acura_tlx_v_6.html
ZF transmissions are junk based on the number of issues they can't get away from. The 8 speed in the Chryslers is another failure.
Chrysler is using them. That's a "clue".
I didn't aware Honda's new 9-speed AT is made by ZF. There are many automakers, especially BMW, Mercedes, Audi who use ZF transmission as ZF is the largest transmission manufacture in Europe.

Either way, even if Honda's new 9-speed AT is designed in house, but like their new CVT, apparently there are issues. Their reputation of technology innovation, good quality and reliability are simply no longer there! Honda has truly lost its way in the recent years!

Now I did some research and Honda's new 9-speed AT is indeed the 9HP48 9-speed AT from ZF Friedrichshafen AG which is the same transmission Chrysler uses. A small company like Mazda designed and manufactured the transmissions by its own, but Honda decided out-sourced a ZF transmission? Honda might as well shut down their R&D and become an auto assembly company! This is another proof that Honda is heading to the wrong direction!

"Chrysler is using them. That's a "clue"." That's funny but I kind of agree with you and I've always stayed away from Chrysler products. The only car we'd had slightly related to Chrysler is a '74 Hornet giving by a friend for free. But it's an AMC product technically speaking.
 
Timing Belt or Timing Chain?

Timing belts, done correctly have several very good points. TBs are quieter, use less HP and do not have the tendency to shear oil. The down side is it is a SCHEDUALLED maintenance item that is costly, especially on a V DOHC engine. You can ignore a WP or chain guide until it leaks or is noisy but, if you ignore changing a TB, you can lose an engine. Ed
I agree with you but I'd like to say something to the "good points" you've mentioned on timing belt.

  • TB is quieter? I can't tell the difference on noise level between our CX-5 with TC and CR-V with TB. If you can tell whether or not an engine is TB or TC equipped by listening, your hearing is superior.
  • TB uses less HP? Even if this is true, that would be very minimum as TC is soaked with oil and the friction has to be very minimum.
  • TB doesn't have the tendency to shear oil? I can't imagine a harmless timing chain which doesn't generate any heat or have too much friction can be the source of oil shearing? If it's a turbo charger, then yes.

Timing chain system has so many benefits than timing belt, hence all automakers but Honda (V6) have switched to it with a minimum added cost. Timing belt should be a thing of past when engine became interference long ago!
 
Consumer Reports finds some newer cars burn too much oil

"Several engines from three manufacturers were the main offenders, according to the magazine. Those include Audi's 2.0-liter turbocharged four cylinder and 3.0-liter V6; BMW's 4.8 liter V8 and 4.4 liter twin-turbo V8; and Subaru's 3.6 liter six-cylinder and 2.0- and 2.5-liter four-cylinder engines. The Subarus burned less oil than the others.
Affected models include Audi's A3, A4, A5, A6 and Q5; BMW's 5, 6, and 7 Series and X5; and the Subaru Outback, Legacy, Forester and Impreza.
"
I just don't think a quart every oil change at worst is a huge deal.
 
I just don't think a quart every oil change at worst is a huge deal.

It's not. For some reason, yrwei is obsessed with this issue (see his posts in other threads). For those who are concerned about it, if you look at the CR numbers, Subaru has drastically improved this issue in the past few years.

The percentage of owners reporting oil burning, by year:

{Forester}
'10 - 4%
'11 - 8%
'12 - 5%
'13 - 4%
'14 - 2%

{Outback, 6-cylinder}
2010 - 14%
2011 - 17%
2012 - 13%
2013 - 3%
2014 - 2%

{Legacy, 6-cylinder}
'10 - 19%
'11 - 15%
'12 - 13%
'13 - 2%
'14 - 0%

See a trend? If you read the Subaru forums, there are MANY threads about this issue. You'll notice that the common theme is that this is now very rare with new Subarus. This issue did not even make me flinch when buying our new Outback.
 
Any thoughts about an Infinity SUV/COV in comparison?

What infinity vehicle would you compare? the QX60 is more comparable in size to the CX-9, not CX-5. i don't think there is a comparable compact SUV in their lineup.
 
For a luxury cuv/suv the 2015 RDX's exterior already looks bland and dated. The 2016 model looks....well confusing? There appears to be no rhyme nor reason behind its styling. Even the JDM version of the current CRV with Projector lights look better. Again this is all subjective.
 
The QX50. It is slightly bigger but it would be the most relative model to cross shop.
 
don't quite understand all the questions about the luxury brand SUVs. You're talking at least a $10k difference for comparably equipped cars, so not really the same class.
 
don't quite understand all the questions about the luxury brand SUVs. You're talking at least a $10k difference for comparably equipped cars, so not really the same class.

I think Mazda is trying to compete its entry and mid trim models with its natural class (CRV, Rav4, ect) along with competing the GT trim models against luxury brands. Mazda is a small company without a dedicated luxury brand like Toyota/Lexus, Nissan Infiniti. I think people are actually cross shopping Mazda GT trim models with luxury brands even though they're not in the same class.

One demographic that comes to mind is the certified-used luxury brand shopper. We've all seen the certified-used commercials from Lexus, Mercedes, ect. I fall in that category. Folks who want a luxury car, style, performance, are on a tighter budget, and are willing to make exceptions hence- getting a used car. Then they see a Mazda commercial and think wait I could get that brand new fully loaded for that much?
 
I think Mazda is trying to compete its entry and mid trim models with its natural class (CRV, Rav4, ect) along with competing the GT trim models against luxury brands. Mazda is a small company without a dedicated luxury brand like Toyota/Lexus, Nissan Infiniti. I think people are actually cross shopping Mazda GT trim models with luxury brands even though they're not in the same class.

One demographic that comes to mind is the certified-used luxury brand shopper. We've all seen the certified-used commercials from Lexus, Mercedes, ect. I fall in that category. Folks who want a luxury car, style, performance, are on a tighter budget, and are willing to make exceptions hence- getting a used car. Then they see a Mazda commercial and think wait I could get that brand new fully loaded for that much?

This was the situation I was in. I was considering a CPO X3 or Mercedes GL when I started looking in May of 2014. About two months into my search I was in Chicago for a few days and saw the CX5. I said to my husband, "Oh god, that car is hideous. Damnit, I'm probably going to end up with one of those, aren't I?" A week or two later I saw the CNET review of this car and realized it wasn't as bad as I thought. Less than a month later I was the happy owner of a 2015 CX5.
 

New Threads and Articles

Back