rar40941's build thread
- Thread starter rar40941
- Start date
No, it's not. Read the links in my previous post. You're going to get yourself, or worse, someone else severely hurt with this misinformation.
FWIW, it looks like your lap belts are mounted too far back as well.
Installshield 2
Gothenburg Superiority
Isn't there a possibility that some are over reacting to this?
I'm seeing criticism from guys saying 'it will never be a race car'...whom are simultaneously saying 'it'll kill you'...Is there any evidence that this setup may not be ideal for racing applications, but is still 'better' than just a factory lap belt and seat?...
NOTHING is perfect for any type of accident...he HAS avoided arguably the biggest problem with aftermarket harnesses, which is spinal compression because of the wrong geometry with the harness...side to side movement along that rear bar may be present...but all documentation provided seems to be related to purpose built one off race cars...of which are much more capable than a 3rd gen protege at the local auto cross event...
You can follow those FIA sanctions to the limit...and have a perfect setup for the arm chair criticism thats going to come on a message board online...but all that means is that the car's restraint system is far more capable than the car its bolted in to...does it mean the soft steel unibody is not going to come completely unhinged in a high speed accident?...that the steering column isn't in perfect position to impale you in a specific front end collision...that a car won't rip right through the side of it in a side impact...those regulations are misleading because we're not taking into account all of them...When those regulations are written, they don't just review the set up and say if its ok or not...the construction of the entire car is factored in...issues such as 'submaring' are being thrown around, which is a common issue in racing set ups where the driver is nearly laying down...in most automotive cases, its literally impossible to slide out underneath a harness with a raised back rest...and this is commonly why, mostly through rally sanctions, full up right back rests and heavy restrictions on seating position have been imposed...and with those seats, he is clearly sitting...not even slightly laying...
I'm just saying, seems like this guy is getting ripped apart for a possibly less than ideal restraint set up...that might not be the best for all out racing...but i'm guessing strongly that its still safer than the normal factory lap belts...for 90% of the common types of road accidents...As i mentioned, NOTHING is perfectly safe...and yeah, some changes may bring that percentage a little higher...but considering some of you said it yourself...its not a race car...automotive safety is always about compromise, not one single set up will protect you from everything...
Again, i'm no expert...but I do feel that the only real argument going around all leads back to 'don't make your car faster, don't change anything on it'...
I'm seeing criticism from guys saying 'it will never be a race car'...whom are simultaneously saying 'it'll kill you'...Is there any evidence that this setup may not be ideal for racing applications, but is still 'better' than just a factory lap belt and seat?...
NOTHING is perfect for any type of accident...he HAS avoided arguably the biggest problem with aftermarket harnesses, which is spinal compression because of the wrong geometry with the harness...side to side movement along that rear bar may be present...but all documentation provided seems to be related to purpose built one off race cars...of which are much more capable than a 3rd gen protege at the local auto cross event...
You can follow those FIA sanctions to the limit...and have a perfect setup for the arm chair criticism thats going to come on a message board online...but all that means is that the car's restraint system is far more capable than the car its bolted in to...does it mean the soft steel unibody is not going to come completely unhinged in a high speed accident?...that the steering column isn't in perfect position to impale you in a specific front end collision...that a car won't rip right through the side of it in a side impact...those regulations are misleading because we're not taking into account all of them...When those regulations are written, they don't just review the set up and say if its ok or not...the construction of the entire car is factored in...issues such as 'submaring' are being thrown around, which is a common issue in racing set ups where the driver is nearly laying down...in most automotive cases, its literally impossible to slide out underneath a harness with a raised back rest...and this is commonly why, mostly through rally sanctions, full up right back rests and heavy restrictions on seating position have been imposed...and with those seats, he is clearly sitting...not even slightly laying...
I'm just saying, seems like this guy is getting ripped apart for a possibly less than ideal restraint set up...that might not be the best for all out racing...but i'm guessing strongly that its still safer than the normal factory lap belts...for 90% of the common types of road accidents...As i mentioned, NOTHING is perfectly safe...and yeah, some changes may bring that percentage a little higher...but considering some of you said it yourself...its not a race car...automotive safety is always about compromise, not one single set up will protect you from everything...
Again, i'm no expert...but I do feel that the only real argument going around all leads back to 'don't make your car faster, don't change anything on it'...
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I found this very helpful video for harnesses while hunting for my setup.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=zGcN-JAMw3c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=zGcN-JAMw3c
Would have to agree with Greg on this one
From what you have said you don't plan to have the car on track/auto cross. If you were to take your car to a track day or auto cross the tech inspectors will let you know if it is safe or not. I for one feel there is a whole lot more to worry about on the streets.
It appears to me you are setting the car up for looks that suit your personal tastes. So it's more about having the seats and harnesses and not needing them for racing. That's cool.
It looks as though the shoulder harnesses are mounted to the child restraint anchors.
I don't think anyone is over reacting, simply pointing out their concern for safety and that good information is being given for anyone reading the thread.
It appears to me you are setting the car up for looks that suit your personal tastes. So it's more about having the seats and harnesses and not needing them for racing. That's cool.
It looks as though the shoulder harnesses are mounted to the child restraint anchors.
I don't think anyone is over reacting, simply pointing out their concern for safety and that good information is being given for anyone reading the thread.
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This. He wants the "race look" and because his car will never see track use it's okay the harnesses are installed incorrectly (rollseyes). As long as we've established that and it's well understood this is not the correct way to go about installing a harness everything's fine.
iamthewheelman
Member
I posted up what I did from personal experience and knowledge of people who have dealt with this even longer than myself. Safety harnesses and roll cages are not built differently because a car is racing at a slower speed. They all must meet the same standard. His harness can not be FIA approved, no racing organization in there right mind would allow a 4 point in competition, there is also a reason they are not allowed on the street. This has clearly been explained, and been ignored which is a shame, but to justify it because his car does not see the track is wrong. When I did not know any better I wanted to do the same thing, but someone informed me that 4 points were unsafe, that is all I was trying to do.
I have been critical of his build at times and stopped because Rar has put a lot of time and effort into it, and he did what he liked and wanted so good for him. Not everyone has the money and resources and his car looks good which is what he wants. Having said that he has began to mess with safety equipment and done so incorrectly. If he had proper harnesses that were installed correctly I would not have said anything.
Installshield 2
Gothenburg Superiority
iamthewheelman...no problem...i wasn't pointing fingers at specific people being overly critical...I was merely stressing that some may be looking into this with a bit more 'opinion' than what is actually needed...
now i'm not saying personal safety is something to take lightly...but i'm sure most of us are aware that this isn't the first debate on harnesses in road cars...I've read multiple posts over the years on various forums of a member that was scoped up and down about his particular harness set up...everyone told him he'd die...his car was systematically ripped apart by another driver...and he walked away from it...of course there is the flip side too...people get killed in car accidents all the time...it sucks...but finding concrete evidence of someone who was killed PRECISELY because his restraint system was designed incorrectly (NOT installed incorrectly, or various parts failed, but simply because it was designed incorrectly)...is pretty hard to find...usually, if there is a death...its simply bad luck, and the car was hit or hit something in such a way that no restraint system was going to save that person.
Look at Ryan Dunn's accident a few years ago...A factory track prep'd Porsche GT3 RS club...fixed seats, full factory roll cage, and harnesses all built by engineers with more racing experience than everyone on this board combined...instantly killed by hitting a tree...yet you can find 10 plus forum members in minutes that walked away from accidents with, what they were told, were 'bad' restraint applications...Just saying, there is a lot more to it than just a few racing regulations...
I also wasn't saying anything about a 'low speed' racing car vs. higher speeds...I was saying racing vs. street use...particularly the variables between a improper race set up vs. factory restraint systems...thats all...When it comes to having a 'better' set up than stock...its usually pretty simple...there are a few very identifiable things to avoid, which Rar seems to have done...but again, that is with the assumption that the harness is anchored properly, with the right hardware, the seats and rails are installed correctly, etc...
So the real issue is...never wreck...and never ever let someone wreck in to you...if you do that...you'll stay alive...I'm sure we all wish it was simple as that...
now i'm not saying personal safety is something to take lightly...but i'm sure most of us are aware that this isn't the first debate on harnesses in road cars...I've read multiple posts over the years on various forums of a member that was scoped up and down about his particular harness set up...everyone told him he'd die...his car was systematically ripped apart by another driver...and he walked away from it...of course there is the flip side too...people get killed in car accidents all the time...it sucks...but finding concrete evidence of someone who was killed PRECISELY because his restraint system was designed incorrectly (NOT installed incorrectly, or various parts failed, but simply because it was designed incorrectly)...is pretty hard to find...usually, if there is a death...its simply bad luck, and the car was hit or hit something in such a way that no restraint system was going to save that person.
Look at Ryan Dunn's accident a few years ago...A factory track prep'd Porsche GT3 RS club...fixed seats, full factory roll cage, and harnesses all built by engineers with more racing experience than everyone on this board combined...instantly killed by hitting a tree...yet you can find 10 plus forum members in minutes that walked away from accidents with, what they were told, were 'bad' restraint applications...Just saying, there is a lot more to it than just a few racing regulations...
I also wasn't saying anything about a 'low speed' racing car vs. higher speeds...I was saying racing vs. street use...particularly the variables between a improper race set up vs. factory restraint systems...thats all...When it comes to having a 'better' set up than stock...its usually pretty simple...there are a few very identifiable things to avoid, which Rar seems to have done...but again, that is with the assumption that the harness is anchored properly, with the right hardware, the seats and rails are installed correctly, etc...
So the real issue is...never wreck...and never ever let someone wreck in to you...if you do that...you'll stay alive...I'm sure we all wish it was simple as that...
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This is how they are suppose to be mount to the seat belts in the back that's how it's suppose to be don.
Thanks man I am going to look into it to see if I can make them 5 piont harness
There is a ton of great info in here.
http://english.schroth.com/racing/installation_instructions.php
They technically shouldn't cross like that unless the roll bar is more than 18" away from the back of the seat. Not trying to bash people, just passing along info.
There is a ton of great info in here.
http://english.schroth.com/racing/installation_instructions.php
They technically shouldn't cross like that unless the roll bar is more than 18" away from the back of the seat. Not trying to bash people, just passing along info.
http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/show...build-thread&p=6101228&viewfull=1#post6101228
It's a lost cause. We've tried to be helpful, but this dude's convinced he's installed everything correctly even though numerous people have said, and shown otherwise.
http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/show...build-thread&p=6101228&viewfull=1#post6101228
It's a lost cause. We've tried to be helpful, but this dude's convinced he's installed everything correctly even though numerous people have said, and shown otherwise.
Went over the link u posted ya u need to fix some stuff got to make it 5 piont and have to do some other stuff. But I don't get why they say its on to bolt to the rear seat belts and then I read the link and it says its unsafe and it's not safe. So I need to go to a shop and see what I can do
Ya pretty much lol It looks like I am drunk when I drive lol
