MS3 - Rear wing effectiveness

[TurboWagon]

I'm gonna jump on this sh*t-show before its too late and throw in my $0.02.

I am a big fan of aerodynamics on a car. I'll agree that my Protege does not need a huge DTM-style wing on the back with an adjustable front splitter and diffuser plates underneath. On the other hand, I will admit that once I hit 90-mph+ The steering becomes slightly twitchy, and the car DOES feel lighter. I put the 01+ front lip on the car and I noticed a small difference, but nothing to shout about. Mazda has already shown that they wind-tunnel test their cars through the MP3 and MSP. Both the MP3's and the MSP's wings generate positive aerodynamic effects and the front clip is designed to do the same.

Anyways, its a safe statement to make that most OEM wings are effective at speed. What speed you ask? Well any airfoil generates lift / downforce the instant air starts moving over it. This also causes drag. Cars like the MS3 DO need aerodynamic aids to keep it true on the highway. It's a 150+ mph car for goodness sake! Most airliners are up at that speed, so what do you think is keeping your car on the ground? Those APC wings you see can probably be set up to generate the proper amount of downforce (providing its adjustable) but the coefficient of drag they add would nullify the results. Again, OEM spoilers / wings are designed to be as efficient as possible.

Granted, physics has shown us that you don't need a wing / spoiler to keep you on the ground in your car anymore, but it is a tried and true, cheap version of doing it. I'm sure Mazda didn't want to design (or spend the money on) a full undertray with a front splitter / diffuser, NACA ducts, and rear diffuser, so they went with the cheaper, but still effective option.

And guys, instead of knocking people who are throwing an opinion out there, prove them wrong in a civil manner with numbers and knowledge and not profanity. Oh, and especially don't knock guys like Brian MP5T who have put tons of money, time, and emotion into their cars and know what they're talking about. You can learn something from, them...

-Jeff

Thank you Jeff, for giving one of the most educated responses thus far. This was what I was originally expecting the conversation to turn to and it went horribly wrong.

However, maybe some people should limit their arguments to private messages seeing as while Brian MP5T has contributed a good deal of information to the thread he has also had quite a bit of other nonsense along with Ryz, dkswim and myself to some degree.

I would just like this to stay on topic. Seeing as it hasn't been locked by moderators just yet, with more posts like FlyinHawaiian maybe we can keep it that way.

 

[FlyinHawaiian]

Thank you Jeff, for giving one of the most educated responses thus far. This was what I was originally expecting the conversation to turn to and it went horribly wrong.

No worries man... I woke up on the right side of the bed today so I thought something constructive might be nice to add... haha

Hopefully someone can give us solid numbers sometime. I'd like to see what the Cd (coefficient of drag) is on the MS3 spoiler versus the pounds of downforce / stability that it gives.

 

[mazdaspeed32007]

ENGINEERED AERODYNAMICS

Special attention was paid to achieve aerodynamic performance that supports stable straight running, lane changing and overtaking at high speeds. A wide variety of underfloor parts, including flaps ahead of the front and rear wheels to control airflow and a full undertray below the engine, were employed to achieve the superior aerodynamic performance targets, and the result is a Cd of 0.32. Clean aerodynamics also deliver a car that is quiet and comfortable to drive at all speeds.

MAZDASPEED DESIGN DNA

MAZDASPEED3 's styling pursues a look of strength and solidity in a design that conveys the car's dynamic performance. Its form is characterized by boldly flared front fenders and effective use of strong edges on the hood. These combine with the functional forms of the bumpers, spoilers and other parts developed for aerodynamic performance. Overall, MAZDASPEED3's design is sporty and strong, befitting a high-performance model, without exaggerated styling cues.


best i could find so far. (dont take things so literal. i was just kidding with the guy when i was crackin jokes. whoever landed one on me right after my comments made me laugh. im not making a personal hit or anything nor do i take em that way. cant be serious all the time. you wont live long that way.)

 

[happy and angry]

The rear spoiler on the North American Speed3 is as functional as any spoiler on any vehicle is. At speed, it spoils airflow over the rear end which, in effect, kills lift. It's probably not aerodynamic in that it provides actual downforce, but that doesn't mean it's not still acting as a spoiler. By virtue of it being there, it's functional, even if only at speeds far above your normal highway cruise.

 

[redspeed]

If it "kills lift" then is actually applying downforce.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downforce

 

[happy and angry]

No. It spoils the airflow at the tail end of the car to prevent lift being generated. It does not HAVE actively generate downforce or act as a wing pulling the vehicle to the ground to have positive effects on rear end stability at speed. Preventing lift from being generated is not the same as generating downforce.

Read:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoiler_(automotive)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoiler_(aeronautics)

Pay very careful attention to this section:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoiler_(automotive)#Passenger_vehicles

Fluid dynamics and aerodynamics are pretty complicated, but in this case the Wikipedia article does a sufficient job of explaining the benefits of a spoiler.

 

[redspeed]

I stand corrected. (second)

 

[mazdaspeed32007]

i love how people use wikipedia as a reference now. imagine writing an essay or passing work into your boss with a works cited or paraphrase from wikipedia. lol. s*** cracks me up.

By virtue of it being there, it's functional, even if only at speeds far above your normal highway cruise.

and also...happy and angry...the speed 6's spoiler is only useful in one manner...to hold a brake light. from what ive heard and from what ive seen, oh...and ive seen things, the lip on the 6 is just another piece of cosmetic plastic. so all factory spoilers arent functional.

 

[mazdaspeed32007]

http://www.lennardwander.nl/weblog/pics/spoiler2.jpg

howdya like dem apples. remember this from GT? badass car. freaky ass wing. oddly enough it works. at mach one speeds. lol.

 

[happy and angry]

A spoiler is not an air foil that generates downforce. The fact that the words are used interchangeably doesn't mean that their function is the same, which they aren't. A wing isn't a spoiler.

Let's try this again. ANY smooth shape (like say, a car) moving through air that has something at the trailing edge that disrupts airflow and generates turbulence (like say, a spoiler) has the effect of disrupting the aerodynamics of the shape. In the case of a vehicle, this means it prevents lift from being generated to some greater or lesser degree. You could slap a 2x4 on the back of your car and experience this, although it would be ugly and less effective than something properly designed to do the job.

And for some reason you criticize me using wikipedia for simplicities sake, and then post a picture of a car from a video game to make your point? If the wing on the back of that Skyline is properly shaped, it is most definitely generating downforce. Race teams don't slap things on their car that will act as drag at high speed unless it's functional.

 

[RSX_CONVERT]

i've been watching this thread for a while, and thought i'd add another little tidbit that no ones mentioning. note: im an electrical engineer who works on fighter jets, so my specialty isn't really aerodynamics, but i do get in on it from time to time. Some people have gotten it right by stating it's a tru spoiler and not a wing. It doesn't create downforce, it's creating more turbulance behind the car. Think about driving behind a semi, or even race cars drafting behind each other. You draft because the mass of vehicle in front of you is displacing air, and creates a pocket of dead air behind it. This essentially means the car is pulling behind it a slug of dead air that slows it down. This is how cars slingshot around each other during races after closely drafting their opponent, since the car they were drafting is also partially pulling them forward. This is also why you see some semis with tiny little fins all over the back edges of their trailers, to improve gas mileage and handling characteristics of their trailers by getting rid of this dead zone of air.

 

[Mocoso]

This thread is in dire need of a Spectre Gun Ship...