MPI Tuner Anyone?

[70]

The problem with bigger ones in the stock location is the control factor. No one who has attemted to use bigger ones can get them to run like stock ALL of the time. Spool even said that cold starts weren't very good. Personally I would not want my car to run like ass when it's cold, just so I can get more fuel when I can get more fuel and have it run like stock ALL the time with extra ones.

Given more tuning and work larger injectors will run just fine on cold starts...

 

[Micah]

doesnt this again touch on the possibility that the fuel from extra injectors... no matter where they are placed IC or TB or upper IM... will not properly atomize because of their location. Also generally it is better to use upgraded cc injectors in place of stock ones... with a complete ems running it (greddy emanage/phantom ems) than extra injectors irregularly placed.. no one has exmained their IM as far as i know ... although paul will probably check his at some point... there may be carbon deposits or not... but i think for performance an reliability it is better to have all the fuel control going through the stock injector locations... better precision is what it ultimately comes down to. direct injection will always show better throttle response.. i would like to see a comparison ... the aem w/ the mpi .... both should get their sickest cars... that would be intersting

For the record, MPNick has been open to a dyno war from the beginning.

 

[Bigg Tim]

Given more tuning and work larger injectors will run just fine on cold starts...

That would be great, but who has done this and with what system?

Turfburn---Are you out there??? How does your car start/run in the cold, hot, or any other temp range? You have bigger injectors right?

 

[MPNick]

I don't think it's so much as a power gain as it is a safety gain. You have a better distribution of fuel with one in each runner, so you have a smaller chance of error. That's all. Plus it may run a little smoother.


I assume you meant to type "How much boost do you run, Dana?"

I'm running ABOUT 11psi right now.


None yet (knock on wood)


No, but you're not gonna get that kind of variance between two cylinders. For that to happen, one would have to get a LOT less fuel than the next. But I'm sure there's some variance between the four cylinders. I'd like to get rid of it by running 4 injectors just to be safe.

As of right now it is all just if that and if this and maybe that or maybe that. No one knows for sure if there is a problem at all. Also everyone needs to keep in mind that we are only adding fuel under boost and not on the onset of boost. No one has ever flow tested a manifold for port to port flow balance under boost. Matter of fact has anyone test a stock mainfold at all?

How about this, just to keep it more interesting. In a race engines you may have injectors will flow rates that are not the same from cylinder to cylinder. I do not mean because the injectors are bad. I mean because one or two ports may flow more air the the next two. So when the engine is tuned you may find 4 injectors with 4 flow rate and not one the same. So with the extra injector you will now have the charge air mixed with fuel. Now if one cylinder flows more air you will have more of the charged air mixed with fuel. Maybe we will find after our dyno day that the extra injector setup will help balance out better a fuel mix problem due to a bad intake. Think about that, a nice cooled down charged air mixed with fuel that helps balance out the afr from cylinder to cylinder. Again no one knows for sure but this may be the case

Thanks again

Later.........Nick

 

[Little Beavis]

That assumes that the air and the fuel "flow" the same and I don't know that I'm willing ot accept that assumption. HOwever, I am not stupid or bullheaded enough to insist that injectors in the TB do not work, because they obviously do and we have NOT seen a blown engine as a result of unbalanced flow that I'm aware of.

Too each their own. . .this is a matter of personal preference, much like other things.

Heck there were threads about how Deltagates are the worst wastegate ever and they spike and fail and cause engines to blow up, yet a TON of us are using them without any problems. Kind of reminds you of the Firestone / Ford tire mishaps. . .most popular tire, so most incidents.

Anyway, I hope everyone is having a great Easter!

 

[Bigg Tim]

That assumes that the air and the fuel "flow" the same and I don't know that I'm willing ot accept that assumption. HOwever, I am not stupid or bullheaded enough to insist that injectors in the TB do not work, because they obviously do and we have NOT seen a blown engine as a result of unbalanced flow that I'm aware of.

Too each their own. . .this is a matter of personal preference, much like other things.

Heck there were threads about how Deltagates are the worst wastegate ever and they spike and fail and cause engines to blow up, yet a TON of us are using them without any problems. Kind of reminds you of the Firestone / Ford tire mishaps. . .most popular tire, so most incidents.

Anyway, I hope everyone is having a great Easter!

Man you need to be in politics! You have a nice stand point on almost everything. I do agree with to each their own, but I am fully for the extra injectors.(not nocking bigger ones though) And I would also like to wish everyone a happy easter. Nick, that means you too there slick.

 

[igdrasil]

In a race engines you may have injectors will flow rates that are not the same from cylinder to cylinder.

And thats not everything. Not all cylinders will have the same compression afterall. So the best tunning posible is to tune for every cylinder.

Actually, the Electromotive TECH III EMS has this feature, to tune each cylinder depending on airflow, temps and cylinder compression.

 

[acidbug]

Extra injectors is nice because you car's ECU can run bone stock until you hit boost, and then the extra injectors come on.

But wagner is right...regardless of what CAN be achieved by placing injectors before the throttle body, putting the injectors as close as possible to the stock ones is a clearly better way to go.

But why would u want the ecu to run bone stock? Wouldn't it better to manipulate fuel maps and timing before you hit boost? Woudn't it help boost to come on faster? Also make the car run faster while you aren't running boost?(dunno)

 

[igdrasil]

But why would u want the ecu to run bone stock? Wouldn't it better to manipulate fuel maps and timing before you hit boost? Woudn't it help boost to come on faster? Also make the car run faster while you aren't running boost?(dunno)

Hey:

A tip. You can advance and retard timing wherever you want on the rpm range with the MPI Tunner. Add/retract fuel also. So... You can manipulate all this based on load/rpm. So you can advance timing while cruising helping get more power out of it, and start retard timing and push all the PSIs you want and not be scared if the stock injectors are being maxed out.

If you do not load the engine, then, you are not using all the power, thus fuel is not needed than what the stock fuel map is injecting.

 

[70]

As of right now it is all just if that and if this and maybe that or maybe that. No one knows for sure if there is a problem at all. Also everyone needs to keep in mind that we are only adding fuel under boost and not on the onset of boost. No one has ever flow tested a manifold for port to port flow balance under boost. Matter of fact has anyone test a stock mainfold at all?

How about this, just to keep it more interesting. In a race engines you may have injectors will flow rates that are not the same from cylinder to cylinder. I do not mean because the injectors are bad. I mean because one or two ports may flow more air the the next two. So when the engine is tuned you may find 4 injectors with 4 flow rate and not one the same. So with the extra injector you will now have the charge air mixed with fuel. Now if one cylinder flows more air you will have more of the charged air mixed with fuel. Maybe we will find after our dyno day that the extra injector setup will help balance out better a fuel mix problem due to a bad intake. Think about that, a nice cooled down charged air mixed with fuel that helps balance out the afr from cylinder to cylinder. Again no one knows for sure but this may be the case

Thanks again

Later.........Nick

I believe Mazda has. That's why there are two different injectors in the IM stock.

The injectors on the last to runners are a different color. My guess is they work (flow, whatever) slightly different to compensate for the air flwo through those runners.

 

[MPNick]

And thats not everything. Not all cylinders will have the same compression afterall. So the best tunning posible is to tune for every cylinder.

Actually, the Electromotive TECH III EMS has this feature, to tune each cylinder depending on airflow, temps and cylinder compression.

We had a TEC III on our race truck. I do not recall seeing anything to tune cylinder by cylinder. I did very little tuning on the truck because Electromotive was one of the companies helping us out. They sent one of their tech out to tune the truck when we went to the track or dyno. I do know in one year we had to replace the TEC III unit three times. They never lasted more then a few months each time.


Thanks again


Later.........Nick

 

[MazdaSpeeder00]

Ok here is my big question along with my current mods i want to raise boost to 9psi. I also plan on getting some kind of California Legal Exhaust. If i read correctly you can control boost with this thing. So basically its a form of a boost controller?? Im looking for something that can fix my car from running like a psychotic POS thru the whole band. What kinda setup would you recommend with the MPI and will it smooth my ride out? thanks

 

[igdrasil]

We had a TEC III on our race truck. I do not recall seeing anything to tune cylinder by cylinder.

Me neither, My mechanic has his 10sec car tuned with the tec II so I will have to check that but Im sure the Tec III has it, it will depend on the software I think,

 

[MPNick]

Ok here is my big question along with my current mods i want to raise boost to 9psi. I also plan on getting some kind of California Legal Exhaust. If i read correctly you can control boost with this thing. So basically its a form of a boost controller?? Im looking for something that can fix my car from running like a psychotic POS thru the whole band. What kinda setup would you recommend with the MPI and will it smooth my ride out? thanks

If you are going to run 9-10 psi I would use the extra injectors, you will need just one. When you use the extra injector you cannot do boost control. It will do one or the other but not both at the same time.

It will completely fix all of your tuning problems with your car. A cheep normal boost control valve is all you will need. You would need MPI Tuner and turbo module along with our extra injector setup.


Thanks again


Later.........Nick

 

[MazdaSpeeder00]

If you are going to run 9-10 psi I would use the extra injectors, you will need just one. When you use the extra injector you cannot do boost control. It will do one or the other but not both at the same time.

It will completely fix all of your tuning problems with your car. A cheep normal boost control valve is all you will need. You would need MPI Tuner and turbo module along with our extra injector setup.


Thanks again


Later.........Nick

SO how much would i be lookin at for this? Is it plug and play?(because i would more than likely have to have someone else do the work) And sorry for my ignorance but what is a turbo module? I would read through but 33 pages is a lot lol.

 

[DooMer_MP3]

Hey MPNick, out of curiosity would you really need the extra injector for 9-10psi on a *MSP*? I would think that the MSP ECU is already "boost-aware" so that putting the MPI on top of that would allow it to still give adequate fuel and timing without the extra injector. Thanks.

Chris

 

[Bigg Tim]

SO how much would i be lookin at for this? Is it plug and play?(because i would more than likely have to have someone else do the work) And sorry for my ignorance but what is a turbo module? I would read through but 33 pages is a lot lol.

It's not PnP, but it's pretty easy to put it in. There's 10 or so wires to hook up, then the tuning.

 

[acidbug]

Hey MPNick, out of curiosity would you really need the extra injector for 9-10psi on a *MSP*? I would think that the MSP ECU is already "boost-aware" so that putting the MPI on top of that would allow it to still give adequate fuel and timing without the extra injector. Thanks.

Chris

Uh..there are many people runnin stock injectors at 9psi..you will not need extra injectors till about 12-14psi!

Chas(hump)

 

[PaulMP3]

Uh..there are many people runnin stock injectors at 9psi..you will not need extra injectors till about 12-14psi!

Chas(hump)

If you are going to run 9-10 psi I would use the extra injectors, you will need just one.
Thanks again


Later.........Nick

Chas, i believe you are the only one running the mpi tuner with just the stock injectors. correct???

 

[MPNick]

Hey MPNick, out of curiosity would you really need the extra injector for 9-10psi on a *MSP*? I would think that the MSP ECU is already "boost-aware" so that putting the MPI on top of that would allow it to still give adequate fuel and timing without the extra injector. Thanks.

Chris

I have not dynoed a Protege yet to see for sure how far we can push the stock injectors. On paper it looks like if you have a big turbo and intercooler you will run out of fuel. With a stock MSP setup you can get a little more. For now what I have seen is after 8 psi you can run out at the top end. I rather play it safe until I have more data.

Thanks again


Later............Nick