MPI Tuner Anyone?
- Thread starter MPNick
- Start date
Looks like the extra timing is up topacidbbg said:
the blue is the MP3 ecu red is the P5 ecuhttp://www.flyinmiata.com/protege/tech/dyno_runs/MP3_ecu_comparison.pdf
Ahhh, looks like my engine bay, but the different brake master cylinder threw me off. Plus that ignition doesn't look too stock. (spin)igdrasil said:
Edit: Oh, and it looks to be missing the tube that comes in to the right side of the valve cover........
That is the best way to go. The extra injector setup is not good over 10psi if you have them in the intercooler pipe. I have seen big differences in a/f ratio between cyl above that. IT does cool the air nicely!!!
By mounting them back a few inches you will not run into any problems like fuel puddles and such.
Andrew Wagner
Wagnermotorsports.net
By mounting them back a few inches you will not run into any problems like fuel puddles and such.
Andrew Wagner
Wagnermotorsports.net
igdrasil said:
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Here are some pics of a vehicle that negates this opinion. This vehicle is in the Feb. issue of turbo magazine an is running 34 PSI of boost WITH extra injectors and makes 780whp and runs the quarter in 9.83 seconds. And another picture of a turbo Viper using them, posted by MPNick. The viper has 10 cylinders, so if the injectors were crap, then it would reflect it more on this engine than ours because the fuel has to go farther to reach all the cylinders.(5 cylinders down, instead of 4) I'm sure that this viper guy wouldn't be putting cheap, non reliable things on his car when he probably already has over 50K in the motor already.wagner said:
How do you know that the extra injector setup is not good for anything over 10PSI??? Have you tested this or is this an opinion. I wouldn't think that this guy would be able to make this much power at this boost level if the extra injectors gave an inconsistant A/F ratio between cylinders.
I'm not saying that that extra injectors in the IC piping are the only way to go, or that extra injectors in the manifold are not good. I am just trying to make a point that having them in the IC piping can and will allow your motor to produce good and reliable power. It is also a cheaper alternative to buying 4 injectors and then having someone drill your manifold to fit them. Our motors are no power monsters, so it will be okay to have them before the TB.
P.S. sorry for the light spot on the pics, I took pictures of the car in a magazine.
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How have you seen the AFR change from cylinder to cylinder? What wide band are you useing. How does it bolt into the cylinder head and does it have 4 probes that read all four cylinders at one time? What injectors do you use? We have run 16 psi without any problems. We also have been doing the extra injector setup for a very long time. We know how to make it work. In your vast few months of screwing with extra injectors you have tried two times and failed to get them to work over 10 psi.wagner said:
I will help you with your post "Wagner Motorsports cannot get the extra injector to work above 10psi". The rest of the tuning world has no problems with the extra injectors.
Next time you post here make sure it is about having your PnP system ready for the Dyno War. The clock is running.
Thanks again
Later...........Nick
note that the fi manifold are not designed to carry a air and fuel mix. This might not be the case with all manifolds. I am simply saying that to mount them behind the stock injectors is better, and you can not count on the manifold to evenly divide that heavier mix to cyl. I have spent many weeks tuning on engine dynos with both egt and wide bands in each cyl.
Andrew Wagner
Wagnermotorsports.net
Andrew Wagner
Wagnermotorsports.net
MPNick said:
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- ‘19 CX-5 GTR Tu
Why run extra injectors...i think it's just easier to run..bigger injectors in the place of the stock injectors??
(confused)
When i plan to up the boost past 8psi..i am gonna go w/ 440cc injectors off a rx7 turbo! I heard they bolt right into the stock locations!
(confused)
When i plan to up the boost past 8psi..i am gonna go w/ 440cc injectors off a rx7 turbo! I heard they bolt right into the stock locations!
What was the wide band that you used that has four outputs? When did you dyno a Protege turbo on the dyno with this setup that can read the AFR on each cylinder? Where is the dyno sheet with the AFR on it?wagner said:
I have spent many years tuning all kinds of cars on the dyno. I have yet to see a boosted car have problem swith the extra injector setup. Some of you people just do not get it yet. We have people running the system for over 8 months on the Protege. Not one has ever blown a head gasket, a piston or even a plug. You cannot have uneven AFR from cylinder to cylinder and not have a problem for this long.
Thanks again
Later.........Nick
I used to think you were on top of your game but I guess you have been pulled down by your boy.wagner said:
Yes the system you are talking about is called water injection. It is used to cool down the charge air temps. How can anyone who knows anything about cars make such a post. Do you think that you can go from 400hp at the wheels to 1,200 at the wheel by just cooling down the charge air temps. How in hell are you going to have the right AFR when you are making three times the power if you do not add fuel. The cooling part is one of the added benefits about running extra injectors, adding fuel is the main thing. Last night at E-town one of this Vipers ran a 10.10 @146mph. Good thing they had all of that cooled down charge.
Unless you have a questions as to why you cannot tune the extra injector to work right, do not make dumb posts on this thread . It will only make you look more like you have no idea about tuning.
Thanks again
Later....Nick
Extra injectors is nice because you car's ECU can run bone stock until you hit boost, and then the extra injectors come on.acidbbg said:
But wagner is right...regardless of what CAN be achieved by placing injectors before the throttle body, putting the injectors as close as possible to the stock ones is a clearly better way to go.
At what point to you gain from them in the intake runners? No one knows for sure at this point in time. 10,12, 16 psi, we just do not know. How much does running big fat injectors hurt lowend spool up and light throttle driving? Staged injectors are the best way all in all, in the runner or the intercooler tubing. That is why we do not use bigger injetcors ever. We are going to race the MSP this year with the extra injectors in front of the throttle body just to prove this point. Late year we were the fastest Protege on this forum with a street car. Tis year we are looking to run low 13s to high 12s. This will be done with our MPI Tuner and our extra injector in the intercooler tubing. We will see if it will hurt us with our goals.Kooldino said:
Why much boost do you ran Dana? How many plugs have you blown or head gaskets or even pistons? Is one of you header runners running red hot next to other that is not?
Thanks again
Later.......Nick
I have to agree with Nick on this one. The fuel atomizes well in the boosted airflow. I'm sure that putting the injectors in the runner is just as good, but I have seen too many high boost/high hp cars that use the injectors in the IC piping to think that it doesn't work effectively. I am putting mine there this coming week.
Nick, you have a PM.
Nick, you have a PM.
If it's just to cool the charge air down, then how come I can make my car run rich as hell at WOT with the stock pump, no FMU and 8PSI on a T3/T4? Like Nick said, cooling is a benefit but not the main reason, the added fuel is the main reason for them. I like the fact that I can boost 8 PSI with the stock pump and no FMU. The MPI can even control the stock injectors, so you have tons of fuel control at the touch of an "F" key!
I don't think it's so much as a power gain as it is a safety gain. You have a better distribution of fuel with one in each runner, so you have a smaller chance of error. That's all. Plus it may run a little smoother.MPNick said:
I assume you meant to type "How much boost do you run, Dana?"
I'm running ABOUT 11psi right now.
None yet (knock on wood)
No, but you're not gonna get that kind of variance between two cylinders. For that to happen, one would have to get a LOT less fuel than the next. But I'm sure there's some variance between the four cylinders. I'd like to get rid of it by running 4 injectors just to be safe.
doesnt this again touch on the possibility that the fuel from extra injectors... no matter where they are placed IC or TB or upper IM... will not properly atomize because of their location. Also generally it is better to use upgraded cc injectors in place of stock ones... with a complete ems running it (greddy emanage/phantom ems) than extra injectors irregularly placed.. no one has exmained their IM as far as i know ... although paul will probably check his at some point... there may be carbon deposits or not... but i think for performance an reliability it is better to have all the fuel control going through the stock injector locations... better precision is what it ultimately comes down to. direct injection will always show better throttle response.. i would like to see a comparison ... the aem w/ the mpi .... both should get their sickest cars... that would be intersting
The problem with bigger ones in the stock location is the control factor. No one who has attemted to use bigger ones can get them to run like stock ALL of the time. Spool even said that cold starts weren't very good. Personally I would not want my car to run like ass when it's cold, just so I can get more fuel when I can get more fuel and have it run like stock ALL the time with extra ones.
