I can't wait to hear some of these results. The last time I took my car to a NAPA, they said I needed to have my fuel injectors cleaned. Well I ran Seafoam through various parts of my car, and didn't really notice anything. Didn't even see anything coming out of my exhaust like I thought I would. So I'm hoping this not only helps out the gas mileage, but cleans out the car.
Miracle for fuel economy?
- Thread starter Kooldino
- Start date
yesiownaskyline
Member
- :
- 2003.5 Mazdaspeed Protege
Hey guys- I havent read the last two pages, but I want to add my insight based on what i know from the aviation industry and mychem background.
Acetone and ethanol both have similar effects on combustion engines- It increases fuel atomization of standard gas thus making it burn more efficiently (note that i didnt say cleaner) and extending gas mileage. A big misconception with acetone/ EtOH is that it gets better gas mileage than traditional gas. This is not the case, as Acetone engines alone (there are many out there, especially in small seat aircrafts) get terrible gas mileage. The complimentary relationship between acetone and gas, however, causes a 91 octane gas to burn like 100. This is why flyinMSP is seeing power gains: he is burning A LOT hotter gas. Its like running on cheap homebrewed race gas. BUT, if you are easy on the throttle like he said, there are noticeable gains to efficiency (a 5% mixture of ethanol/acetone will get about 20% economy.).
Regarding 1sty's question as to why this has never been a hot topic before, thats simple- gas was never $3.XX a gallon before. We were going just fine without looking for alternatives. Now that the need arises, a lot of the US is looking into other options like this. This is NO SECRET. Brazil and Japan (as well as other EU countries) have a mandatory 5% Ethanol addition into their gas to improve efficiency/performance. This has been going on since the '90's.
Now, not everything is as good as it sounds, so here are the risks:
- Your engine will run about 20-30degrees hotter with acetone/EtOH, so be careful! Detonation/ knock is much easier to accomplish on this mixture than regular pump or race gas.
- It will riun Cats with prolonged use.
- It will NOT pass a sniff test. I said it burned more efficiently, but not necessarily cleaner, esp after it eats through the Cats.
- It is not reccommended to use this in cold weather (under 35 degrees). Acetone and EtOH are known to congeal in gasoline at low temperatures, causing it to become concentrated in one area of the tank. This can mean zoom zoom boom if you arent careful and burn tanks till E. (dont be put off by this. your chances of this are slim, but it is a risk. You can virtually eliminate it by filling up no later than 1/2 tank)
Also, there are a few piston engines that can run on 100% EtOH/ Acetone fuel, but they are highly forged and the fuel delivery system does need special attention. While acetone wont eat through the lines at the recommended ratio (5% or less), it will at more concentrated levels.
Hope this helped.
Acetone and ethanol both have similar effects on combustion engines- It increases fuel atomization of standard gas thus making it burn more efficiently (note that i didnt say cleaner) and extending gas mileage. A big misconception with acetone/ EtOH is that it gets better gas mileage than traditional gas. This is not the case, as Acetone engines alone (there are many out there, especially in small seat aircrafts) get terrible gas mileage. The complimentary relationship between acetone and gas, however, causes a 91 octane gas to burn like 100. This is why flyinMSP is seeing power gains: he is burning A LOT hotter gas. Its like running on cheap homebrewed race gas. BUT, if you are easy on the throttle like he said, there are noticeable gains to efficiency (a 5% mixture of ethanol/acetone will get about 20% economy.).
Regarding 1sty's question as to why this has never been a hot topic before, thats simple- gas was never $3.XX a gallon before. We were going just fine without looking for alternatives. Now that the need arises, a lot of the US is looking into other options like this. This is NO SECRET. Brazil and Japan (as well as other EU countries) have a mandatory 5% Ethanol addition into their gas to improve efficiency/performance. This has been going on since the '90's.
Now, not everything is as good as it sounds, so here are the risks:
- Your engine will run about 20-30degrees hotter with acetone/EtOH, so be careful! Detonation/ knock is much easier to accomplish on this mixture than regular pump or race gas.
- It will riun Cats with prolonged use.
- It will NOT pass a sniff test. I said it burned more efficiently, but not necessarily cleaner, esp after it eats through the Cats.
- It is not reccommended to use this in cold weather (under 35 degrees). Acetone and EtOH are known to congeal in gasoline at low temperatures, causing it to become concentrated in one area of the tank. This can mean zoom zoom boom if you arent careful and burn tanks till E. (dont be put off by this. your chances of this are slim, but it is a risk. You can virtually eliminate it by filling up no later than 1/2 tank)
Also, there are a few piston engines that can run on 100% EtOH/ Acetone fuel, but they are highly forged and the fuel delivery system does need special attention. While acetone wont eat through the lines at the recommended ratio (5% or less), it will at more concentrated levels.
Hope this helped.
Last edited:
Yeah i didnt wanna get flamed so I was gonna wait to tell people until they tried. It does seem to get up and go a bit quicker. I went around a UPS truck in a neighborhood yesterday and got on it pretty good from a stop. 1st gear was stout then I shifted to 2nd and kept breakin loose. All I said was DAAAAMN!!!FlyinMSP said:
yesiownaskyline said:
So just a few ounces of acetone per tank would bring your octane rating from 91 to 100??
20-30 degrees in the combustion temps or what?
If you're running a much higher octane mix with the acetone, wouldn't that combat AGAINST knock?
Damn.
How so?
yesiownaskyline
Member
- :
- 2003.5 Mazdaspeed Protege
Kooldino, I'll try and answer everything as best I can, but my background info on this is in turboprop engines on planes... its a bit different, but the same concept.
- When saying 91octane gas combined with a few mL of acetone would burn like 100, i was generalizing. Your octane rating wont increase, but you are using the 91 in a much more efficient manner. The only comparison that i could think of would be to compare it to burning straight 100octane.
- I am not SPECIFICALLY sure, but combustion temps in a turboprop engine (which is just a fancy F/I piston engine realy) are about 30 deg. F hotter than burning standard fuel. It may not be as drastic depending on how much you add, but your combustion and EGT's will be noticeably higher.
- I may have been wrong on knock now that I am thinking about it, but it will make the system more susceptible to detonation.
- The reason for engine failures @ cold temps is kind of tricky to explain, but it is based on the ECU misreading. When air is pushed into the system, the ECU puts a proportional amount of fuel into the chamber and thats that. But when the Acetone/ EtOH is more concentrated in one part of the tank, your ECU is not recognizing the difference in the tank. For example, at WOT your ECU dumps fuel assuming that there is enough to burn all the oxygen. If you happen to intake an abnormally high concentration of acetone due to the congealing (this isnt the right word, but for the lack of a better term...) from your gas tank, as blkzoomzoom said, detonation will OWN you.
- When saying 91octane gas combined with a few mL of acetone would burn like 100, i was generalizing. Your octane rating wont increase, but you are using the 91 in a much more efficient manner. The only comparison that i could think of would be to compare it to burning straight 100octane.
- I am not SPECIFICALLY sure, but combustion temps in a turboprop engine (which is just a fancy F/I piston engine realy) are about 30 deg. F hotter than burning standard fuel. It may not be as drastic depending on how much you add, but your combustion and EGT's will be noticeably higher.
- I may have been wrong on knock now that I am thinking about it, but it will make the system more susceptible to detonation.
- The reason for engine failures @ cold temps is kind of tricky to explain, but it is based on the ECU misreading. When air is pushed into the system, the ECU puts a proportional amount of fuel into the chamber and thats that. But when the Acetone/ EtOH is more concentrated in one part of the tank, your ECU is not recognizing the difference in the tank. For example, at WOT your ECU dumps fuel assuming that there is enough to burn all the oxygen. If you happen to intake an abnormally high concentration of acetone due to the congealing (this isnt the right word, but for the lack of a better term...) from your gas tank, as blkzoomzoom said, detonation will OWN you.
jrodhotrod
Contributor
- :
- 2003 Mazda Protege5 (Mine) 2002 Nissan Sentra GXE (Wife's)
Awesome discussion and great information. This is the way this forum should work more often.
So here is what we need folks to look into:
Someone with an EGT gauge to record before and after EGTs
Water temp gauges with a before and after water temp rating
And in summary, if you have a catless mid-pipe there isn't a lot to worry about here.
So here is what we need folks to look into:
Someone with an EGT gauge to record before and after EGTs
Water temp gauges with a before and after water temp rating
And in summary, if you have a catless mid-pipe there isn't a lot to worry about here.
I am just trying to help out with the wording here.
Do you mean that at high temperatures the acetone will diffuse through out the gas as an even solution and that when cold the acetone will fall out of that solution thus becoming a concentrated pocket of liquid acetone somewhere (not actualy going to gel).
Much like sugare water will do. When warm, the water can hold more sugar that diffuese and when cold much of that sugar is no longer supported by the water and will fall out of it collecting at the bottom of the glass.
High School Chemistry baby!! (headbang)
Do you mean that at high temperatures the acetone will diffuse through out the gas as an even solution and that when cold the acetone will fall out of that solution thus becoming a concentrated pocket of liquid acetone somewhere (not actualy going to gel).
Much like sugare water will do. When warm, the water can hold more sugar that diffuese and when cold much of that sugar is no longer supported by the water and will fall out of it collecting at the bottom of the glass.
High School Chemistry baby!! (headbang)
yesiownaskyline said:
flat_black
Member
I'm presently running a GReddy EGT, and the reading is the same, if not marginally lower, running the acetone. Under load, it seems to jump up a bit quicker, but it levels off sooner than the straight gasoline. 480degC on the high end to about 465degC on the high end, now.
Just my observations thus far (42 miles, the needle has barely moved on the gas gauge), and the car seems to smooth out through the higher RPM range, from 3500 to 6500. A tiny extra bit of pull, too.
Just my observations thus far (42 miles, the needle has barely moved on the gas gauge), and the car seems to smooth out through the higher RPM range, from 3500 to 6500. A tiny extra bit of pull, too.
- :
- 2001 Pro 2.0 LX
I still dont see acetone not mixing with methanol in the cold winter days. their properties are too similar. Also, 1sty what you said about the high temps, that would only really aply to the combustion chamber and not the gas tank itself. I dont see acetone becoming more dense than methanol and falling to the bottom of the tank and not mixing.
flat_black
Member
One of the properties of acetone is that the relative density is actually closer to gasoline than ether, sitting at .79 g/cm^3 rather than .789 g/cm^3 for ether, both at 20degC, and as temperature fluctuates closer to 0degC or higher than 20degC, the acetone mixture keeps density closer to the .80 g/cm^3 of gasoline, rather than fluctuating in density quickly, as is the case with ethanol.
Another thing to note is that acetone has a 100% solubility rate in water, gasoline, and ethanol, but ethanol combining with acetone, it doesn't retain it's properties, but rather, it develops a more complex ketone, closer to ethanol. So, essentially, ethanol in your tank would reduce the affect of acetone.
The two particular issues with acetone, where I think most of the difference is, is how it acts almost as a 'coolant'. It evaporates slower than gasoline (Index of .11 rather than .20), and the ignition point is higher, while the flash point is nearly the same (-20degC), so it keeps the same properties, but 'keeps' the gas molecules from one and the other, keeping a slower overall burn, and as the body ketone of acetone is burning, all the gas has previously burned off, most likely, and the ignition toward the trailing end creates a heavier flame front, which burns off the unused gas much more efficiently than just letting the gas ignite on its own, either at the cat or afterword, hence lower emissions, and the burning of the acetone is rather clean, only putting out a slight amount of NOX and/or CO, so the actual exhaust pushed out is much cleaner, rather than being comprised so much of unburned gas.
High solubility in most any compound makes it much easier to combine and burn, and really, in cold weather, I'm guessing it would actually help to a degree, just due to acting like a 'dry gas', of sorts, as it is totally miscible in water, and becomes a burnable compound which pulls the water out of the tank, lending it to a density closer to the rest of the gasoline, rather than settling at the bottom of the tank, so it will be burned off successfully.
Lots of things to consider with this, but so far, the experiments are going well. And I'm actually preforming some at home myself (DON'T DO THIS IF YOU AREN'T USED TO IT!), and am very interested in lots of the findings I'm coming across. I'm going to try and find some way to test the NOX/CO/carbon soot output of the material, in multiple ways, both mixed with gas, non-mixed, vaporized, and so-on.
Another thing to note is that acetone has a 100% solubility rate in water, gasoline, and ethanol, but ethanol combining with acetone, it doesn't retain it's properties, but rather, it develops a more complex ketone, closer to ethanol. So, essentially, ethanol in your tank would reduce the affect of acetone.
The two particular issues with acetone, where I think most of the difference is, is how it acts almost as a 'coolant'. It evaporates slower than gasoline (Index of .11 rather than .20), and the ignition point is higher, while the flash point is nearly the same (-20degC), so it keeps the same properties, but 'keeps' the gas molecules from one and the other, keeping a slower overall burn, and as the body ketone of acetone is burning, all the gas has previously burned off, most likely, and the ignition toward the trailing end creates a heavier flame front, which burns off the unused gas much more efficiently than just letting the gas ignite on its own, either at the cat or afterword, hence lower emissions, and the burning of the acetone is rather clean, only putting out a slight amount of NOX and/or CO, so the actual exhaust pushed out is much cleaner, rather than being comprised so much of unburned gas.
High solubility in most any compound makes it much easier to combine and burn, and really, in cold weather, I'm guessing it would actually help to a degree, just due to acting like a 'dry gas', of sorts, as it is totally miscible in water, and becomes a burnable compound which pulls the water out of the tank, lending it to a density closer to the rest of the gasoline, rather than settling at the bottom of the tank, so it will be burned off successfully.
Lots of things to consider with this, but so far, the experiments are going well. And I'm actually preforming some at home myself (DON'T DO THIS IF YOU AREN'T USED TO IT!), and am very interested in lots of the findings I'm coming across. I'm going to try and find some way to test the NOX/CO/carbon soot output of the material, in multiple ways, both mixed with gas, non-mixed, vaporized, and so-on.
jrodhotrod
Contributor
- :
- 2003 Mazda Protege5 (Mine) 2002 Nissan Sentra GXE (Wife's)
flat_black...
You are the man.
Keep it going with the experiments.
You are the man.
Keep it going with the experiments.jrodhotrod
Contributor
- :
- 2003 Mazda Protege5 (Mine) 2002 Nissan Sentra GXE (Wife's)
So here is a question...
If EGTs are the same as they were before, wouldn't it make sense to assume that no long term damage would be done to the CAT from using Acetone? (As I recall, I haven't re-read the thread, the main concern about CAT health was that high EGTs might shorten it's life?)
If EGTs are the same as they were before, wouldn't it make sense to assume that no long term damage would be done to the CAT from using Acetone? (As I recall, I haven't re-read the thread, the main concern about CAT health was that high EGTs might shorten it's life?)
