Lewis7789's 2003 Protege5 build thread

[thejeans]

did you read the link i posted???
it explains why more is not always better... ruin the brake balance and you will kill time on track just as easily as running a poor line, not to mention you could drastically worsen/lengthen your 60-0 distances, which if you are wanting to track isnt a good thing either...

id suggest going msp, tracking it and then IF you feel you need more, look to upgrade at that point. i just hate to see you build the whole car only to find out its slow as piss on track cause the braking balance and other things are all outta wack

 

[THE Phen]

Well, more is more, right? The MSP kit was designed for a stock MSP. I'm sure that would be plenty fine for my application but if I'm going to upgrade components anyway, why not upgrade them to the parts I really want? Plus upgrading/modding is the whole part of building a car. Heck, a stock P5 would be plenty for me on track but building this car is the reason why I'm doing it. The added bonus is it will be quick-ish. Like the Lego metaphor again, I liked building the Police Station a lot more than actually playing with it. Ya know?

I'm not ruling any options out right now is all.

I follow your thinking. But what's to say that the braking system isn't over engineered in the first place?

 

[Lewis7789]

I forgot to read that, Levi. I'll read it at lunch.

Phen, when has Mazda over-engineered anything? haha

 

[princess peach]

Phen, when has Mazda over-engineered anything?

motor mounts

 

[ajkulish]

transmissions

 

[THE Phen]

I forgot to read that, Levi. I'll read it at lunch.

Phen, when has Mazda over-engineered anything? haha

Before Ford interfered?

 

[Lewis7789]

Well I would upgrade both front and rear braking systems with the same vehicle. Like the MS6 front and rear brakes. I wouldn't just slap some huge rotors and calipers on the front and leave the rear stock and hope for the best. And I don't think buying an MSP set up, trying it, then possibly upgrading is the best idea financially as well. The black P5 has an OEM setup right now and I would like to upgrade it. It doesn't have to be right this minute, but it will get upgraded. So if I'm going to spend the money I would like to spend the money once on a setup that works. I don't see how upgrading to bigger rotors, all around, would worsen anything though.

 

[PrinceValorum]

I forgot to read that, Levi. I'll read it at lunch.

Phen, when has Mazda over-engineered anything? haha

Haha, umm, the F2 and FE3 are the only things that come to mind... Other than that, nothing.

transmissions

I hope you forgot the pink font on that.

 

[THE Phen]

It could actually. Proportions could still be goofed up because braking contact area has been altered. You could get lucky and it be a close split front to rear.

The risk of big upgrades (even with front and rear upgrades) is that a bigger contact patch on the front could do so much more work than before that the rears would be used even less than they are now. Now, you would think that "Oh... the rears are bigger too so the little bit of force they would get would mean more braking power still." Downside is that there is a chance that the rears just aren't even beginning to compress. Effectively... 2 wheel brakes. A similar idea would be having super awesome mega pads in the front, and craptastic Auto zone pads in the rear. Fronts grab like mad, while the ones in the rear are contacting the rotor, but doing next to nothing compared to the front.

Now, I'm not trying to steer your decision at all with this post. I'm just walking thru ideas running thru my head.

 

[THE Phen]

A better idea yet... Come to New Jersey with us. Come talk to some of the teams about braking systems. They know their s***, rather than a whole **** ton of internet speculation. They can give you all sorts of information that can help in your build.

 

[Lewis7789]

Thank you for the info and advice, I always read it and make sense of it. I don't dismiss anyone right away, don't get me wrong. And what you're saying makes sense. But again, I've got a lot of research to do so a lot of what I type is me thinking outloud as well.

And come to Jersey and talk to people. Haha, you're funny. Talking to strangers... But like I said, I'm focusing on suspension right now, then will move onto the braking system when the suspension is buttoned up. I really haven't done much research on braking and won't buy anything until I know what I want. You know how I roll. (pardon the pun)

 

[ajkulish]

Haha, umm, the F2 and FE3 are the only things that come to mind... Other than that, nothing.



I hope you forgot the pink font on that.

lol i didnt forget the font, im just anti pink font. people should recognize sarcasm. im always sarcastic

 

[Lewis7789]

this article is def. worth a read for anyone looking into the braking "upgrades"

http://stoptech.com/technical-suppo...ias-and-performance-why-brake-balance-matters

So I read the article and I believe I understood it. First and foremost, tires are the best thing to upgrade when upgrading brakes. Good tires? Check and check. However, I'm not sure if I didn't say that I wouldn't be simply slapping some upgrade rotors on the front and calling it a day. Like the article said, that would create a huge front brake bias and could easily worsen the braking distance. But with installing upgraded (I'm talking about MSP, MZ6 or MS6/MS3 rotors and calipers here, not Wilwood or StopTech systems) front and rear calipers/rotors I'm still achieving the brake bias from the factory, just on a different platform. Since most of the rear of the P5 will be gutted (like my silver P5 was) and probably about 110lbs of additional weight to the front with the heavier motor (I've heard KL's are about 80lbs heavier than FS's) and the turbo system wouldn't the upgraded complete F/R brakes help and not hurt? By adding weight to the front and removing weight from the rear that should result in a front biased braking system and would locking up the rear much easier. So while upgrading the complete braking system a brake proportioning valve is a very wise idea. And A Wilwood valve from Summit down the street for $80 would work quite well to dial it in.

Or maybe I still have it all backwards and need some more help. I'm certainly no expert in anything... But I wasn't going to simply slap some of the biggest front rotors I could stuff in there and call it a day. Right now I'm still leaning towards the MSP setup for ease of installation, tuning cost and rotor/pad selcetion. But if Chris will give me a deal on his MS6 rotors it might be very well worth experimenting with.

 

[thejeans]

yeah, the biggest thing i got from that article was still just some trial and error. there is no dead set science to get it perfect for each car as some drivers would like it different than others.

while i dont think upgrading is a bad idea i just hate to see you go too much and have it pushing like a pig or having the ass loose like a ***** on nickel night. i think if i were you, id take advantage of some of the knowledge of some race teams when you are at races, lean on marlon, bill and even possibly try to get in touch with Tri-Point as i think they used to run the proteges

im all for you building a badass car, im just trying to play a little devils advocate to help make sure you do it in a way that will keep from upsetting the balance of the car thats all buddy

 

[PrinceValorum]

^At the same time, I can't see anyone being much help without doing the same trial and error. I don't know, maybe there are some kind of generalizations when fine tuning a brake setup?

 

[subspeed6]

Shipping companies don't like when cars are loaded up with stuff. I got an earful when I got the Bav because the previous owner loaded the trunk and back seat with stuff. Just a heads up.

No worries on the stealies then ,Shae. I want the shipping company to take extra good care of her so I wouldn't to risk them being whiny bitches. haha. Thanks, though!

I've never had any issues with the shipping company I use. I got the MSM with the exhaust wrapped up in the passenger's seat, suspension and other parts in the trunk. I've also shipped the MSM to Atlanta from CT the same way.

 

[Lewis7789]

I appreciate your concern, Levi, but at the same time please give me a little credit, buddy. I don't like to throw away money and this isn't my first car, ya know? heh-heh. I'll politely ask Bill, Marlon, DaveB, Marc and the other local cats a few questions and see if they would be willing to give me some advice/insight.

 

[Lewis7789]

Anywho, I'm gonna order new control arms with ball joints soon and a front pass wheel bearing and have them ready for when the P5 finally gets here. I'm counting down the days. Haha. I've got some GT Spec rear trailing arms on order and got my used KMR chassis brace in. I've got to start whording parts in the basement now, I ran out of room in the garage. MegaSquirt should be done testing their PGT and ready to ship the P-N-P ecu in Mid-April. And in two weeks (I'm still saving up a bit more so I'm not broke until payday, heh-heh) I'm finally ordering the Turbonetics turbo. Dem thangs aint cheap, yO! Slowly but surely...

 

[CR3 Motorsports]

Hey get the control arms from Amazon. $120 shipped new. =) I can get you the whiteline bushings.

2 week wait. though =)

 

[Sport23]

... But with installing upgraded (I'm talking about MSP, MZ6 or MS6/MS3 rotors and calipers here, not Wilwood or StopTech systems) front and rear calipers/rotors I'm still achieving the brake bias from the factory, just on a different platform.

Not sure if you already know or not; the MSP front brakes were taken from the 626 V6. The only difference is the color of the caliper. IIRC the MSP rears brakes were Euro spec so you will have to order MSP rears.

I'm no expert on brake bias but what I read from a good AutoX MSP build was that the MSP setup is a bit rear biased. For that persons car they simply ran more aggressive front pads (due to class limitations) and were very happy with the results. I *think* I remember Tripoint or DocB mentioning that the MSP is a bit tail happy too.