Hands Down...Which ECU Mod is BEST???

[Haltech]

Haltech.... you are a respected poster on this board. I enjoy your posts, but what you just said is ridiculous. Your suggesting that the Cobb may have "microcoding"?

My response is WTF... if it were even possible, then why wouldnt OEM ecus like Mazdas with millions of dollars in potential warranty claims include it. Ive heard the new GT-Rs will have unbreakable ecus with probably millions invested to make it that way. Why in the hell would Cobb who is struggling to get a simple basic bolton flash, which still isnt even done, waste time and money building in "safegaurds" so tuners cant alter their unit with a piggyback. Its ludicrous to even suggest it. Think of the outrage that guys like me and others would have. Think of the fact that they would be COSTING themselves more money by limiting the use of their AP needlessly. Think of the whole concept of a respected TUNER blocking others from tuning and spending precious money, resources, and time to figure out how to do it.

I am not a huge fan of the CPE..... quite frankly Id rather of had the Xede. But it was going nowhere. The fact remains that the highest HP MS6s and MS3's in the country are using the product as is.... in its developmental stage. And you are comparing it to a product that hasnt even been released yet.

I cant believe how much drool is being dripped, over a product that hasnt been released, and cannot be tuned....soon or maybe ever. Cobb has had doubletalk on this thing since the beginning. I even read how they said that control over the throttle isnt really even necessary.... although they "have that control". Sounds like a setup for disappointment to me. And no release dates if ever, for us to go pay one ballsack, for a tuner to "flash" our cars each time we add a mod.

The CPE version 2 will be available to all CPE standback owners. Im of the opinion that all big horsepower cars by this time next year will have some version of it running on their build. They probably will have the Cobb flash as well. We'll have to see what that flash looks like first.

From my experience Pale, in the Ford market, tuners DO microcode their tunes when reflashing the computer. We dont know if this is done yet by cobb, but there IS a chance. Just throwing it out there bro. Cobb has competition, anyway you look at it. Whos to say company A & B doesnt buy a AP, flash it, than go in and look at the programming with their setup? IF it was my company who was about to release this highly anticipated tool, you bet your ass i would microcode my tunes that are only readable via my hardware.

CPE needs to make a comeback with V2.0 because as of right now, their standback has been a disappointment from the high horsepower guys with MS3's. Also, because of the delay with the PNP, alot of people are going to go with the Cobb, whether it makes big power or not.

 

[Falconx84]

micro-whatever wouldn't matter with the standback

my understanding is that the standback intercepts whatever signal the ecu receives and makes it think what it wants to think. Since the cobb completely rewrites the ecu, the standback should work as designed and still intercept the signal

 

[palerider]

From my experience Pale, in the Ford market, tuners DO microcode their tunes when reflashing the computer. We dont know if this is done yet by cobb, but there IS a chance. Just throwing it out there bro. Cobb has competition, anyway you look at it. Whos to say company A & B doesnt buy a AP, flash it, than go in and look at the programming with their setup? IF it was my company who was about to release this highly anticipated tool, you bet your ass i would microcode my tunes that are only readable via my hardware.

CPE needs to make a comeback with V2.0 because as of right now, their standback has been a disappointment from the high horsepower guys with MS3's. Also, because of the delay with the PNP, alot of people are going to go with the Cobb, whether it makes big power or not.

I stand corrected then. Thanks for not drubbing me...lol I still would have to believe the standback would have to have "some" value as an interceptor unit. If for nothing else to adjust a little fuel and boost over the Cobb flash.

If version 2 gave it nothing but the ability to be on the level of a basic emanage for fuel, and a pretty snazzy boost controller/ map clamp... than I cant imagine a circumstance where I wouldnt still want it. And besides the v 2 has GOT to have some nice surprises.... or else CPE is dead and gone. And they know it!!

Its my understanding that the ability to customize the AP is a LONG way off. I want a turbo upgrade this spring... Ive got to hope the CPE or something else will be around to help.

(Edit)Also... would microcoding assumably render your dashhawk useless?

 

[Speedy3]

Let me check my understanding so far.

1. A standback or piggy-back cannot adjust for environmental conditions
2. A reflash can adjust for environmental conditions
3. An interceptor (Like Xcede) can adjust for environmental conditions.

Is this correct?

 

[numbnuts22715]

Let me check my understanding so far.

1. A standback or piggy-back cannot adjust for environmental conditions
2. A reflash can adjust for environmental conditions
3. An interceptor (Like Xcede) can adjust for environmental conditions.

Is this correct?

its my understanding that an interceptor and a piggyback are the same thing.

 

[Speedy3]

its my understanding that an interceptor and a piggyback are the same thing.

I guess, I was really referring to a PnP vs non PnP.

 

[numbnuts22715]

I guess, I was really referring to a PnP vs non PnP.

a plug and play has a harness that plugs right up, and with a non pnp you have to splice into the harness...

to my knowledge, the only thing that can really adjust to environmental conditions is a flash because it uses all of the ecus capabilities. A standalone changes EVERYTHING and sticks to those values, a piggyback alters whatever the stock ecu says to whatever you set the piggybacks value to.

Someone correct me if i'm wrong, i'm pretty new to all of this.

 

[Speedy3]

a plug and play has a harness that plugs right up, and with a non pnp you have to splice into the harness...

to my knowledge, the only thing that can really adjust to environmental conditions is a flash because it uses all of the ecus capabilities. A standalone changes EVERYTHING and sticks to those values, a piggyback alters whatever the stock ecu says to whatever you set the piggybacks value to.

Someone correct me if i'm wrong, i'm pretty new to all of this.

This is my first experience with car ECU's. I have written ICD's for can busses on aircraft, but that experience really doesn't do s*** to help me with tuning a car!

I like the responses on this thread so far though.

 

[fasteract]

I think a standalone like AEM can adjust to environmental factors via it's various sensors just like the OEM ECU...basically the AEM ECU replaces your stock one but allows you the ability to "reflash" it at will via your laptop. My EVO's AEM system allowed me to program parameters like A/C cutoff, launch control, etc. far beyond what the stock ECU would allow....

 

[desperado-c]

....
CPE needs to make a comeback with V2.0 because as of right now, their standback has been a disappointment from the high horsepower guys with MS3's. Also, because of the delay with the PNP, alot of people are going to go with the Cobb, whether it makes big power or not.

I don't think the high horsepower guys are the right test for a product's viability. At the power levels they are going for all kinds of problems come out of the woodwork.

The Standback, with PnP just an acceptable manufacturing sample away, is still a very good option for people want an expert or at least an individual tune for something less than maximum dragstrip horsepower. AP is a year or more away from offering this and , for those who without the knowledge to do it themselves, only available from a Cobb-certified tuner.

My point is just that Standback is far from dead even without V.2's throttle control, at least until AP has tuning s/w available.

 

[Haltech]

I don't think the high horsepower guys are the right test for a product's viability. At the power levels they are going for all kinds of problems come out of the woodwork.

The Standback, with PnP just an acceptable manufacturing sample away, is still a very good option for people want an expert or at least an individual tune for something less than maximum dragstrip horsepower. AP is a year or more away from offering this and , for those who without the knowledge to do it themselves, only available from a Cobb-certified tuner.

My point is just that Standback is far from dead even without V.2's throttle control, at least until AP has tuning s/w available.

Well let me clarify what i mentioned so you have a better understanding on what i wrote. The advantage of the high horsepower people is it gives the average joe the warm fuzzy that he can upgrade down the road and not look for another ECU solution. If you cant support the high horsepower people with your product, you just cut off your hands. it shows no upward mobility and ability to dial the car in.

Theres what, 8% of us looking for substantial power increases through 2008? Than you have 75% who want a nice conservative bump. Than you have another 6% who really dont care and wont touch the car. So, if you have your target market, the 75% people, which are your bread and butter, do you think an interceptor setup is going to sale when the person needs to bust out a soldering iron? No. These guys want something they can plug in, flash, get a decent map and be done with it. With an interceptor, you still have to make the adjustments AFTER you installed it. Than comes weeks of testing, modding parameters, datalogging, and owning a laptop.

Cobb is smart in the respect that they will have the 75% market. By the time they are ready to go higher, Cobb should have their software out to make the changes to the map. So us, who are the 8% people are going to be waiting a little longer, BUT it will be a better road to travel. We wont have to alter outgoing ECU signals and get a half ass way of manipulating the programming and still being stuck with the computer taking over our set adjustments.

People want simple and effective solutions. Need to goto the dealer? No prob, reflash the stock program. Get where im going with this?

Im surprised CPE hadnt developed their own OBD-II solution yet. Seems like they have some great engineering over there, but i think they are going down the wrong path. If they could offer a AP such device, they could give Cobb a little run for the money since they have more experience with the car.

Only time will tell.

 

[Speedy3]

Well let me clarify what i mentioned so you have a better understanding on what i wrote. The advantage of the high horsepower people is it gives the average joe the warm fuzzy that he can upgrade down the road and not look for another ECU solution. If you cant support the high horsepower people with your product, you just cut off your hands. it shows no upward mobility and ability to dial the car in.

Theres what, 8% of us looking for substantial power increases through 2008? Than you have 75% who want a nice conservative bump. Than you have another 6% who really dont care and wont touch the car. So, if you have your target market, the 75% people, which are your bread and butter, do you think an interceptor setup is going to sale when the person needs to bust out a soldering iron? No. These guys want something they can plug in, flash, get a decent map and be done with it. With an interceptor, you still have to make the adjustments AFTER you installed it. Than comes weeks of testing, modding parameters, datalogging, and owning a laptop.

Cobb is smart in the respect that they will have the 75% market. By the time they are ready to go higher, Cobb should have their software out to make the changes to the map. So us, who are the 8% people are going to be waiting a little longer, BUT it will be a better road to travel. We wont have to alter outgoing ECU signals and get a half ass way of manipulating the programming and still being stuck with the computer taking over our set adjustments.

People want simple and effective solutions. Need to goto the dealer? No prob, reflash the stock program. Get where im going with this?

Im surprised CPE hadnt developed their own OBD-II solution yet. Seems like they have some great engineering over there, but i think they are going down the wrong path. If they could offer a AP such device, they could give Cobb a little run for the money since they have more experience with the car.

Only time will tell.

That's what I wanted to hear, but just don't know jack about tuning to have asked for it correctly!!!

Cobb, hurry up!

 

[desperado-c]

Well let me clarify what i mentioned so you have a better understanding on what i wrote. The advantage of the high horsepower people is it gives the average joe the warm fuzzy that he can upgrade down the road and not look for another ECU solution.

....

Im surprised CPE hadnt developed their own OBD-II solution yet. Seems like they have some great engineering over there, but i think they are going down the wrong path. If they could offer a AP such device, they could give Cobb a little run for the money since they have more experience with the car.

Only time will tell.

Thanks for clarifying. Now I understand. You believe most users are sheep who don't understand that the problems of the 5% of users looking for bleeding edge, drag strip power have little real world implication for them. Those problems, while interesting and valuable for continued development a few years down the road, are not being tackled even by Cobb, who are notably not even attempting to support a catless DP option, or higher pressure fuel pumps, or any of that.

I'm sure you're right that for most, Cobb will be the first choice, because it's by nature PnP and easy. But, I still say that until Cobb releases their programming software, the Standback (and even the Xede for that matter) should continue to have value to people who want the ability to tune their engines sooner rather than later. PnP on the Standback will clinch that even for some whose upgrade aspirations include bleeding edge power. As for offering a reflash capability, CPE is a small company who are doing a hell of a job with what they have, but at this stage I doubt that could have included cracking and reprogramming the ECU.

 

[Haltech]

Thanks for clarifying. Now I understand. You believe most users are sheep who don't understand that the problems of the 5% of users looking for bleeding edge, drag strip power have little real world implication for them. Those problems, while interesting and valuable for continued development a few years down the road, are not being tackled even by Cobb, who are notably not even attempting to support a catless DP option, or higher pressure fuel pumps, or any of that.

I'm sure you're right that for most, Cobb will be the first choice, because it's by nature PnP and easy. But, I still say that until Cobb releases their programming software, the Standback (and even the Xede for that matter) should continue to have value to people who want the ability to tune their engines sooner rather than later. PnP on the Standback will clinch that even for some whose upgrade aspirations include bleeding edge power. As for offering a reflash capability, CPE is a small company who are doing a hell of a job with what they have, but at this stage I doubt that could have included cracking and reprogramming the ECU.

Well CP-E hopefully will give us better control over the ECU with V2.0. Time will tell. IF something isnt done soon, many will leave this platform and move on. Some are even doing it now. Im happy with the car as is but i intend to push more power asap.

 

[Haltech]

Answer from Josh @ Cobb about the AP and it IS microcoded:

The ODB II datalogging is not locked. Any device that reads the OBD II data can still function properly. The answer to it being locked for flashing or reading the ROM was already answered. You will not be able to use any current means to read the ECU mapping/programming or flash the ECU including the factory/dealership methods. But again this does not effect OBD II datalogging devices, they will function normally. It would be pretty crappy of us to remove that.

You can still use piggy-backs if you want, but it may not allow the AccessPORT to function properly. That would be a step backward unless you are just using features that do not effect the tune of the car. If it intercepts signals you may be removing some of the advanced programming/functions that the ECU can do. You may be worse off.......I don't know. A seperate boost controller will not be required with the AP. The stock boost control system (the programming of the ECU included) is MUCH more advanced than any aftermarket boost controller.

 

[palerider]

Answer from Josh @ Cobb about the AP and it IS microcoded:

That answer sounds about like what my mazda dealer would say about my stock ecu. Basically the piggybacks will work about the same way they do now..... half ass. But still half ass is better than.... no ass.

s***.... quarter and eighth ass beats no ass too.

Whatever the CPE is.... its better than nothing. And thats my point

 

[Haltech]

That answer sounds about like what my mazda dealer would say about my stock ecu. Basically the piggybacks will work about the same way they do now..... half ass. But still half ass is better than.... no ass.

s***.... quarter and eighth ass beats no ass too.

Whatever the CPE is.... its better than nothing. And thats my point

We will see when the final dyno numbers and ETs show up with the COBB AP (fuoops)

 

[palerider]

We will see when the final dyno numbers and ETs show up with the COBB AP (fuoops)

And I show up with turbo, fuel pump, water/meth, maybe nitrous, forged internals, AND (drumroll)

AP flash and standback...

This will all be on my car by the time I can tune with the AP.

So...we can go on and on(bicker) ...... or you can stop and let me blow my damn car up this year...lol I just got a new daily driver, and Im determined to not be as conservative in 2008 as I was in 2007...

 

[Speedy3]

And I show up with turbo, fuel pump, water/meth, maybe nitrous, forged internals, AND (drumroll)

AP flash and standback...

This will all be on my car by the time I can tune with the AP.

So...we can go on and on(bicker) ...... or you can stop and let me blow my damn car up this year...lol I just got a new daily driver, and Im determined to not be as conservative in 2008 as I was in 2007...

Hey Palerider, you have a lot of mods. Have you dynoed your car or taken it to the track yet?

 

[lil_red_wagon]

this is the first time that i have seen this topic posted here and quite a few people actually agree. there are usually about a thousand people answering 5-10 different ways.