Give war a chance

[1sty]

Just to hoenest up a bit I am for the most part F-ing around but I do definitly realize the massive ness of the situation.
On one hand
- we have a, at best, evil mother F-er that kills hundreds of thousands of poeple a year and is despereratly seeking the ability to accomplish that task far more efficently.
- His main goal is the distruction of one of our greatest allies and definitly our best in the area.
- He is totaly unrational and answers for nothing and to no one.
- His country is in complete fear of him and will never stand against him no matter his action. NOt to say everyone in his country as many rebel and most die for doing so.
- He has already forcefully occupied and razed another country wioth care of international law or those who in enforce it.
- With the UN, basicly which becames the US's action against him was the only meathod to remove him from the occupied territory.
- Even with constant survailance nothing has changed his attempts at further reaching his goals.
- He was not in throned or impowered by the US.
- The US gained no favor from him in any way even after aiding the guarentee of his power.
- Sanctions of every variety have been tried for over 12 years with no result other then innocent death.
- Sanctions have proved utterly useless in that he in no way cares who dies as a result of his actions.
- It is all but guarenteed that he has been developing weapons of mass destruction.
- From past experience we know his troops we for the most part surender.

Other Hand.
- there is no definit proof yet as of his creating weapons of mass destruction.
- He does not care who he kills so he will march as many epople at an invader as he can.
- He will most likely use innocent people as a shield if he has too.
- His soilders were armed and trained by the US.
- Any troops used if he does have weapons of mass destruction he will use them if anyone invades with no regard for the innocents killed.
- For the most part Western style imposed governemets have proved un successful in the long run.
- US is the only action pushing state an unilateral action has mosstly the potential to worsen te views of the US in the Geo-Political world.
- Many states such as France, has a very large Muslim population that are opposed to any action against Iraq.
- Some states are justifiably concered about prevoking more terrorist attacks.

Did I miss anything?

Notice I list no corse of action. I am intelliganet enough to know the proper decision in this situation is far out of my mental ability to determine. I am a car audio installer and Control systems programmer not a tactical genouis or geo-political analyst.

For the most part all of us on the boards are not even close to qualified to make a decision on this that anyone in a position of power would or should pay attention to. This doesn't negate our opinions however.

And for anyone that try to mention I called countries a State, you just proved you don't know s*** about Gobal-politics.

 

[protege52nr]

when you get to alberta, just watch out for the snipers in the pick-up trucks.

Ahhhhhh soooo true....

BTW It's not Canada thats supplying the US with large quantities of Oil, its more like Alberta...its hard enough that the west doesnt have a voice in Canadian Federal Politics...why should we say the nation is when basically one province is...thank god for the Heritage Fund, I can expect a good amount of $$$ when I graduate from high school

Anyone catch a glimpse of Bush and the Italian PM? HAHAHAHAHAHA, the Italians are soooo kissing Bush's ass...

Nice job there 1st MP3 in NH, very 'in depth' with both sides!

 

[gaZOOM-ZOOM]

So I am a moron for posting this in p5? I know nothing about AMERICAN politics, AMERICAN government, all coming from a bunch of bugger eating liberal pansies. I have finely figured out that about 1% of the people in here have a clue, the other 99%just want mazda and the united states to give them a handout. This posting did exactly what I wanted to do. I stirred the s***. (lol) This is so much fun. Go sit over in the corner and smoke your dope while the UNITED STATES MILITARY makes sure the freedom we have is not lost to some maniacle dictator and so that other people may be free, happened for france, germany, japan, and a few other piss ant countries, coombyeya mylord coombyeya. (usa) love or leave it. On you're way out the door take hollywood with you. So long turkeys. (lol)

 

[Equinox]

(stupid)

yup, moron.

man why can't you take a joke.

 

[WaatDaHell]

Alright kids, stop trying to sound so "political."

 

[jsgolfer]

one thing you forgot 1st mp3 in NH, when the last 'war' was over, we left the rebels in Iraq hanging with on support and alot of them got killed, they were called the kurds. we are only out for ourselves and could give a **** about the people of Iraq. the american government only wants to fuel its military machine and dominate the world at any cost. its the truth and you all know it.

 

[uclap5]

frankly, i think that all the non-war solutions havent worked. I'm pretty anti-war, but sometimes there just isn't a better solution. Kind of a necessary evil in a world that doesn't respond to other means.

So far we have been treading softly and just showing off our big stick.

I think we might as well start swinging that big stick.

 

[Equinox]

Alright kids, stop trying to sound so "political."

I'll be political because I can vote. =)

 

[1sty]

one thing you forgot 1st mp3 in NH, when the last 'war' was over, we left the rebels in Iraq hanging with on support and alot of them got killed, they were called the kurds. we are only out for ourselves and could give a **** about the people of Iraq. the american government only wants to fuel its military machine and dominate the world at any cost. its the truth and you all know it.

Not totaly true, once the damn press picks of the "Highway of Death" hit the air waves public sentament was so against continued action that the US had to stop fighting, not to mention it was just a complete slaughter. However, that lack of pursiverance is what made the entire missin a failure based on the goals forset to accomplish.

The Kurds definitly didn't get the back up they were promised, which has always been a problem with the US in military endevors, we're known for that s***. The problem is we were complying with UN orders to not continue which ment once home we had to leave Iraq alone. I agree we shouldn't have listened.

Another nice however, is we had easily crushed Iraqs army and taken most of there troops prisoner yet the Kurds still got sluaghtered. Which pretty much tells us they were completely unable to stand on there own, not exactly someone you want to turn a government over to.

Unfortunitly, none of this make the problems over there any less complex.

 

[big_ben]

So I am a moron for posting this in p5? I know nothing about AMERICAN politics, AMERICAN government, all coming from a bunch of bugger eating liberal pansies. I have finely figured out that about 1% of the people in here have a clue, the other 99%just want mazda and the united states to give them a handout. This posting did exactly what I wanted to do. I stirred the s***. This is so much fun. Go sit over in the corner and smoke your dope while the UNITED STATES MILITARY makes sure the freedom we have is not lost to some maniacle dictator and so that other people may be free, happened for france, germany, japan, and a few other piss ant countries, coombyeya mylord coombyeya. love or leave it. On you're way out the door take hollywood with you. So long turkeys.

You are a complete and utter dumbass. Do you even have any right to say,

Go sit over in the corner and smoke your dope while the UNITED STATES MILITARY makes sure the freedom we have is not lost

Have you served any time in the military? Well guess what, I have. If you did serve in the military, did you get deployed to a war at any time? Well guess what, I have. If you did get deployed to a combat zone, did you actually kill anyone? Well guess what, I have. I was probably lasing targets while you were getting your ass beat in high school. I have seen what war does to the population in a country. Have you? I'm sure you will say yes because you watch CNN or Fox News. Guess what, they don't show the real s***. Did they show the time we lost sight of two tanks in a village in Kosovo so instead of waiting to find them, we just carpet bombed the whole village? Did they show the time when I found a whole convoy of Albanian refugees trying to just get out of Kosovo, then the Airforce thought it was the enemy and just carpet bombed the whole road? Did they show us bombing a tank that was sitting next to a playground that you could clearly see kids playing there within 100 yards of it? Did they show the photos of all the mass graves we found? Did they show the photos of women and kids lined up and shot because we were there? I think you need to do some more research before you take your American citizenship for granted and spout off at the mouth like you actually know what the **** you are talking about.

I have full right to talk about the military in any way I feel fit. I do believe that we should attack Iraq, but do you know what, I know why we should attack them. You don't! Everything you have said is what the American media spits out at dumb ass Americans like yourself because they know people with small minds can be easily swayed. It's people like you that make Americans look so dumb and naive of what is actually going on in the world. I am completely ashamed of Americans like you. People like you are the first to shout about how we should go to war, but when someone accidentally drops bombs on our own troops, you comdemn them and say they should go to prison. Well you know what, that's war and s*** happens. You move on and learn from your mistakes.

I'm done with you, you ******* idiot. Don't you ******* talk to me about what the military should do when you don't even have a clue about what's going on in the world.

 

[big_ben]

For jsgolfer:

the american government only wants to fuel its military machine and dominate the world at any cost. its the truth and you all know it.

I'm not attacking your but I also think you need to wake up. If you haven't already noticed, we already dominate the world. We are the most advanced and most powerfull nation on earth. We are the most powerful and we hold the most influence over any other nation on earth. Do you feel that we should have that power and just keep to ourselves and not help anyone else. When people say that "we shouldn't be the police of the world", they are completely wrong. We should! We are the richest and most powerful country, why shouldn't we be obligated to help everyone else if they need it? It is our job to do that, it sucks yes, but it is still our duty.

The sad fact is that we don't help everyone that needs it. But as for Iraq, we are not going there because they need our help. We are in fact going there because of the oil. Oil drives the world incase you all havent noticed. If an insane dictator is in charge of 10% of the worlds supply of oil, that is not exactly a good thing is it. No we are not trying to conquer it or take control so we can get a good price on our oil, we are just trying to stabilize the region so that things don't get out of control.

If you want to know what happens when the US ignors problems like this and just keeps to ourselves, just open up a book about World War 2. That is exactly what happend in that situation. It spiraled out of control. By the time we got into it, it was a war that was sure to last at least 4 years. There will be less death if you fix things before they become worse.

 

[Equinox]

I hope gaZOOM-ZOOM's next mod is an ass, cause his just got taken.

(owned)

I'm kinda afraid of Big_Ben now. (bowdown)

 

[big_ben]

There's nothing to be afraid of, I've just seen it all. I have a different and more clear view of the world now. I believe it whould be manditory that all american serve 2 years in the military so they can see the different views and cultures of the world. It would definetely change the minds of dumbasses like this guy.

 

[Equinox]

Nah you just have the "I can kill people" feeling, to me now

 

[big_ben]

I never actually looked anyone in the eyes when it happened. I flew UAV's and we lased targets all the time. Put it this way, we targeted at least two objects a day for 3 months strait until they finally gave up. You can't think of it as killing people, you had to think of it as a game you were playing. But in all actuality, there were real people in those vehicles we were blowing up. I remember one time we were holding target on a refueling vehicle and a guy was walking towards it. Then as soon as he stepped into the truck,......BOOM! Laser guided bomb hits. Huge explosion. That was the only time I was like,....whoa, we just killed someone.

 

[deepcover6]

Bush's State of the Union address delivered that message emphatically. The U.S. will not wait, for the United Nations or even its allies, before striking. We need not seek their approval or cooperation. It is the United States' judgment that Saddam Hussein, owing to various crimes against humanity and the oil industry, must go. It is also the United States' right to make that judgment, regardless of whether anybody else agrees, and it is also the United States' right to implement it, again, regardless of what others say, think, or do.


"It also includes a sudden decimation of Baghdad by raining down on its people, in two days, some 800 cruise missiles -- more than were used in the entire Gulf War. Harlan Ullman, the military strategist who apparently developed the plan, last week characterized the Baghdad assault thusly: "You have this simultaneous effect, rather like the nuclear weapons of Hiroshima, not taking days or weeks but minutes." It would be a firestorm, a Dresden with 60 years of new technology. It would be a war crime of quick and staggering proportions.

Such a plan, of course, makes a mockery of Donald Rumsfeld's ritual insistence that the Pentagon takes enormous care to avoid civilian casualties; the plan apparently is to kill a staggering percentage of Baghdad's civilian population in the first day alone.

And the name of the plan is "Shock and Awe." Ostensibly, the name refers to the demoralizing effect such an attack would have on Iraqis, an effect, presumably, similar to the instant (although already planned) surrender of Japan after the gratuitous bombing of Hiroshima and even more gratuitous bombing of Nagasaki. But those were, both military and diplomatically, demonstration attacks -- suggesting what could be done to the imperial rulers themselves and to Tokyo, a city far more valuable and populous than Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined."

http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?itemid=14425&CFID=4850525&CFTOKEN=7513552

 

[big_ben]

That's not true. The accuracy of our weapons today are ten times that of the weapons during the Gulf war. People don't realize that. But think about it, the gulf war happened over 10 years ago. That is a whole era when it comes to technology. There will be civilian casualties, but not as many as you think. But, hey, that's war, s*** happens. There will always be civilian casualties, you can only work to minimize them.

 

[Drumrboy]

Big Ben,

I can absolutely relate to what you said about war with your response to "gazoom-zoom". I was in the Marine Corps at the time of the Gulf War, and anyone that thinks our young men and women that go fight in a war really want to or are not scared shitless, you need a reality check. It is full of absolute chaos, dismemberment, destruction, sorrow and death - there is nothing "glamorous", "macho" or "kick ass" about it. I also lived most of my childhood and teen years growing up overseas, in both Korea and Indonesia and as a result, can relate to your comments about how much of the world outside our borders, views Americans with some contempt and disdain and how embarassed some "Americans" make me feel. We as Americans need to educate ourselves about life, cultures and customs outside our own country, before we shoot our mouths off about how we are the greatest and everywhere else sucks. And to Gazoom-zoom, if you want war, please feel free to lead the charge and let me know what you see, smell, hear and touch and tell me how you like it.

Michael
Semper Fidelis, USMC

 

[big_ben]

After serving overseas, my view of the world totaly changed. I actually understand why these terrorists want to attack out country. It is a blind and insane reason, but I do understand their reasoning.

 

[MP5s Make Ready]

Originally posted by Big Ben: I remember one time we were holding target on a refueling vehicle and a guy was walking towards it. Then as soon as he stepped into the truck,......BOOM! Laser guided bomb hits. Huge explosion. That was the only time I was like,....whoa, we just killed someone

I'm sorry this is a very heated descussion, but the way i read that made me chuckle to myself. I know it's unfortunate that someone died, but LOL...I can just see it. KABOOM....LOL...wrong place at the wrong time....definitley....