general talk about ECU and EMS

[Fede_italiano]

Lately I have been looking a lot into EMS systems because of a school project.
I have been looking at many of them and I was wondering if you could use any general ECU for any car like Motec, DTAfast, AEM,... or there certain ECU that are designed for regular cars.

Since an ECU controlls the engine, the traction, air, fuel, timing, boost an so forth, what controlls in our cars or any other car all other electronics like seat, radio, A/C,...

Do we have another separate ECU or controller for those things?

For the guys that have emanage, mpi, microtech,... do you guys had to change injectors, sensors and so on so that they will be compatible with the new ECU?

Any of you guys have enabled for example traction control using separate stand alone systems?

Thanks and sorry if I am a bit general.

I just would like to talk about wires a bit more.

See you

 

[bestmazda01]

the ECU controls it all.

new EMS generally means added sensors since the stock sensors won't be used.

 

[Fede_italiano]

the ECU controls it all.

new EMS generally means added sensors since the stock sensors won't be used.

So you need to change injectors and so on.

What about functions like electric windows and AC, there is no input for those things in any ECU like motec.

Does anyone ever installed Motec in their cars?

 

[bestmazda01]

you dont need to change injectors unless your current ones dont flow enough...

electric windows are controlled by their control panels. A/C is controlled by the HVAC controls

 

[Fede_italiano]

you dont need to change injectors unless your current ones dont flow enough...

electric windows are controlled by their control panels. A/C is controlled by the HVAC controls

So the ECU on the passenger side of the car could be change with any performance ECU as long as you follow the specifiactions.

For example, change injectors or coil if they do not have the right impedance or resistance for the particular ECU.

I see, I guess technically you could "easily" put a traction control and launch control system in our provided that ECU will be able to process the informations.

You could use a data logger to store information about the engine and see how the car was running in the different situations.

If I undertand correctly, you cut the wires to the ecu and all the electrical things on the car will function with the exception of the engine.

Is there anybody here that had to change injectors and use bosh or others because their EMS required them to do so?

Thanks for all your help.

 

[apocman]

MPI is piggback system, so it allows for the stock ECU to do everything, but the things we want to control with the PB...

We control timing, stock injectors, extra injectors, fuel cut and a few other things with the MPI, but allow for the ECU to handle all the rest...

 

[apocman]

I control my traction, buy controlling my Boost levels via my Blitz SBC i-D III and my Blitz PowerMeter I

I use speed mapping and I set 4 differernt boost levels and then tell the car which one to use in 12.5mph increments

like for example 8psi 0-25mph, 10psi 26-37mph, 12psi 38mph on...

 

[apocman]

and remember to research and make sure the choice you go with has been proven to work on the Protege

 

[Fede_italiano]

How would you read this fuel map?

The Top columns represent the gears?

The left column should be the RPM.

Thanks for the help guys

 

[CasopoliS]

How would you read this fuel map?

The Top columns represent the gears?

The left column should be the RPM.

Thanks for the help guys

Maybe top column is boost and the EMS only kicks in once 1psi is reached?

 

[Bigg Tim]

Even with stand alones, they leave the stock ECU in don't they? I thought the Haltech leaves the stock ECU in so it can control all the finer things in driving, like A/C, pwr windows etc... Removing the stock ECU will never allow you to pass emisions because there will be no OBDII ECU to show some drive cycles to the emissions computer. Also you will have to change or add some sensors on to get the units to work with the car.

The stand alones usually use larger injectors, but the MPI piggyback does not require this because it's just that....a piggyback. You may need xtra injectors with higher boost levels to give the extra fuel. We leave the stock injectors alone so the car dirves like stock out of boost and also idles perfect all the time. Also by leaving the stock ECU and injectors in, there are no startup issuues that need to be tuned out, it's STOCK until you want it to not be stock!!! The MPI doesn't require any additional equipment to get it to run either, unless you want more boost, then you need the xtra injectors.

If you had the skill set and money, you could probably get any of the EMS' to work on our cars, but it will take a lot if time if no one has done it before. I know Turfburn (microtech unit) and Mental Addiction Motorsports (AEM unit) have done a lot of R&D to get their EMS' to work in our cars effectively so that just shows that anything is possible if you know what you're doing.

 

[mazda2002]

heres some reading material on the subject: http://members.aol.com/dvandrews/ems.htm#programems

I think verticals are load and horizontals are RPM. The numbers in each square represents the amount of fuel at each load and RPM combination.

 

[Fede_italiano]

heres some reading material on the subject: http://members.aol.com/dvandrews/ems.htm#programems

I think verticals are load and horizontals are RPM. The numbers in each square represents the amount of fuel at each load and RPM combination.

awesome.

THANKS.

Yup, that is the trottle sensor.


Thanks again

 

[TurfBurn]

the ECU controls it all.

new EMS generally means added sensors since the stock sensors won't be used.

Not for Microtech... the Microtech uses all stock sensors... the main stock ECU does control all dash gauges, lights, locks, etc... even the alternator... the Microtech takes over the motor though and the stock ECU gets no say in any way over what happens on the motor... thus a true standalone... other EMS's you do have to replace sensors in a lot of cases... but not with Microtech. Also, Microtech can handle ANY injector high or low impedance... it can also handle multiples of each on each injector driver... so you can run multiple fuel rails etc, all off the one system and unit.

The biggest trick with our car has to do with the alternator... it's half self contained, and half controlled by the stock ECU...

 

[TurfBurn]

So you need to change injectors and so on.

What about functions like electric windows and AC, there is no input for those things in any ECU like motec.

Does anyone ever installed Motec in their cars?

It's far more expensive than other EMS's for no real gain... so no point in Motec... I believe most base Motec systems run around 2K... and while they have extra features, it is nothing anyone actually needs to eek a lot of power out of the car.

You can control some things like AC and windows etc... and there are ways to rewire them... all depends on how you want to deal with things and what the inputs and outputs of the EMS you are using are.

 

[TurfBurn]

I see, I guess technically you could "easily" put a traction control and launch control system in our provided that ECU will be able to process the informations.

Not likely... traction control, unless done with the braking system, is typically achieved by power cutting the motor...either spark or retarding of timing... trying to get the stock ECU to go along with that without freaking out would be rather difficult.

You could use a data logger to store information about the engine and see how the car was running in the different situations.

Just use OBDII software scanners and that will do exactly that with the stock ECU.

If I undertand correctly, you cut the wires to the ecu and all the electrical things on the car will function with the exception of the engine.

Nope... some things will NOT like it if you cut certain sensor etc... but I can't elaborate for certain reasons.

Is there anybody here that had to change injectors and use bosh or others because their EMS required them to do so?

I don't believe so as our stock injectors are high impedance and most ECU's don't have an issue with that.. however, if you go low impedance some really don't like that... others like the Microtech simply don't car what injector you put in.

 

[TurfBurn]

Even with stand alones, they leave the stock ECU in don't they? I thought the Haltech leaves the stock ECU in so it can control all the finer things in driving, like A/C, pwr windows etc... Removing the stock ECU will never allow you to pass emisions because there will be no OBDII ECU to show some drive cycles to the emissions computer. Also you will have to change or add some sensors on to get the units to work with the car.

Yes, you leave it in to control all the "creature comforts" Also, when really done all the way out with the proper switches in etc... it keeps the OBDII completely happy.

The stand alones usually use larger injectors, but the MPI piggyback does not require this because it's just that....a piggyback. You may need xtra injectors with higher boost levels to give the extra fuel. We leave the stock injectors alone so the car dirves like stock out of boost and also idles perfect all the time. Also by leaving the stock ECU and injectors in, there are no startup issuues that need to be tuned out, it's STOCK until you want it to not be stock!!! The MPI doesn't require any additional equipment to get it to run either, unless you want more boost, then you need the xtra injectors.

Standalones usually use larger injectors because they are on high powered cars... you can use whatever size injector you want witha standalone... the MPI can't handle big injectors in the primary slots so thus you run secondary ones... and that works great too... The whole thing about start and idle problems is a rather big fallacy that has been promoted for quite a while.... but many many cars out there run very big injectors in the ports and start and run and idle just fine. Stock Evo's and STI's are great examples as well of an inline 4 running large port injectors.

If you had the skill set and money, you could probably get any of the EMS' to work on our cars, but it will take a lot if time if no one has done it before. I know Turfburn (microtech unit) and Mental Addiction Motorsports (AEM unit) have done a lot of R&D to get their EMS' to work in our cars effectively so that just shows that anything is possible if you know what you're doing.

It takes a lot of understanding of the wiring and what affects what in the car... in theory you can get anything to work... but when it comes down to it the market is not getting to a good point with options for people on here... so pursuing another one unless there is a specific gain or reason to do so is not worthwhile.

 

[TurfBurn]

you dont need to change injectors unless your current ones dont flow enough...

electric windows are controlled by their control panels. A/C is controlled by the HVAC controls

There are AC triggers and so forth that are handled by the stock ECU. The windows I'd have to double check to see if they are protected or limited by the ECU at all.

 

[Bigg Tim]

I thought they kept the ECU's. And the MPI can do larger injectors, but it will fire them in batch mode, like the haltech, but Nick doesn't like that because you don't get the same smooth idle like you do stock.

So how would you get the OBDII to work with a Standalone using switches? I guess the switches would allow the ECU to see what's doing with the engine and allow for drive cycle codes? Man if you set that up, then that would be the s***. If I were to go standalone with what's out there, I would go Microtech, I heard to much BS about the Haltech and it rubs me wrong. With all the R&D you've put in this, it sounds good, definatly better then when Spool was verkin on it. I'm sure they would have gotten there if they had time but with what they had at the time, it wasn't as practicle as it seems now.

The AEM is a bit too much for me and what I want to do. That's why I went MPI, because it's inexpensive and does everything I need it to do, and then some.

 

[Fede_italiano]

I thought they kept the ECU's. And the MPI can do larger injectors, but it will fire them in batch mode, like the haltech, but Nick doesn't like that because you don't get the same smooth idle like you do stock.

So how would you get the OBDII to work with a Standalone using switches? I guess the switches would allow the ECU to see what's doing with the engine and allow for drive cycle codes? Man if you set that up, then that would be the s***. If I were to go standalone with what's out there, I would go Microtech, I heard to much BS about the Haltech and it rubs me wrong. With all the R&D you've put in this, it sounds good, definatly better then when Spool was verkin on it. I'm sure they would have gotten there if they had time but with what they had at the time, it wasn't as practicle as it seems now.

The AEM is a bit too much for me and what I want to do. That's why I went MPI, because it's inexpensive and does everything I need it to do, and then some.

Thanks guys.

This is a good discussion.

Sequential >> Batch