Forged Internals

OK....so I downloaded the Finite Element Analysis you talked about from the link you posted.

Maybe I am missing something here but this study compares the Parabolic beam of the Oliver rod to the standard "H" beam. It does not specify which "H" beam rods they are using for the test but the known rods that fall into this category are Carillo, Cunningham, and Crower ( I may be missing a few here). The study does not compare the Pauter cross "+" design nor even mention it. Am I missing something????? Don't mean to flame here, just trying to understand and learn something!

BTW, the study is using a model of the forces seen in Winston cup motor at 8000 RPM. :eek:

Thanks,
Tom
 
MAMotorsports said:
I am sure you have seen these rods but for those who have not, they are a cross beam design which means if you were to cut the beam in half, the section would look like a "+" (plus sign). While this has an interesting look and it is unique, it like every other design has pros and cons. On the pro side, it has good support under the pin and in the right application, should take power fairly well. On the con side, this design has most of its mass in the center of the beam where the two "fins" meet and has very little mass out toward the outside fibers( important). This gives it very little torsional (twisting) strength. With the new cylinder heads being developed, there is a lot of swirling in the combustion chamber(especially in Over Head Cam motors) and this swirling pushes on the dome or dish of the piston and wants to turn it in the bore. This is a HUGE problem in the Pro Stock drag ranks and to lesser degrees as power levels and combustion pressures come down. Any way, this twisting of the rod beam causes an unequal load on the beam which means there are areas that see high load and others that see a lower load. This can be a problem because the high load areas may exceed the tensile strength of the material and cause it to either yield (major problem) or to fatigue and fail after a period of time (still a big problem but it will last a while before failure). If you have a Pauter rod that is on its way to the junk pile, put the big end in a vise, put a steel bar through the pin end and try twisting the beam by pulling on the bar. You will be surprised how easy the beam twists.

Yes, they are a good mid grade rod but are nowhere near the best.
Actually your right MANY have seen this rod. IT is probably the best ALL around connecting rod on the market.
Alot of what your saying I cannot agree with.
I do respect your opinion on the matter but it seems to be biased toward opinion rather than knowledge with fact as a basis.
The intake charge , during the overlap period, will not cause the piston to "screw". It puts a compressive low rpm load and tensile high rpm load on the the entire assembly. That means piston, conrod, crank, And most importantly the WRIST pin.
When we are discussing tensile load we are meaning it will cause stress due to increased rpm, where the rod wants to disengage form itself. When you are revving high the crossectional area is the important factor in determining strength. Reason for this is because the load is "straight up and down" At that point you are only as strong as your conrod fastener, material and cross section area. (which pauter clearly has more of than many other rods out on the market). Pauter uses ARP rodbolts specifically designed for each application.
Your issues that you have with high and low load areas IMHO dont carry any merit in this regard. The Pauter design is a mainstream design which incorporates a constant and non tapering mass from the wrist pin straight down to the top of the cap.. It distributes the load evenly so as not to allow sensitive stress areas to develop.
Your example of putting the rod in a vice and twisting it is not valid either. It wasnt designed to deal with that type of "load". It was designed specifically for the "actual" events taking place in the internal combustion engine. Fact of the matter is they are recognized by racers ALL over the world as being leaders in High performance connecting rods. They incorporate a design that is light weight and durable.
I guess someone forgot to INFORM a "nobody" by the name of BOB NORWOOD, when he built the fastest MR2 in history. He ran the vehicle on the salt flats of Utah at speeds over 200 MPH consistently. Guess what rods they used and still use?
I guess the guys in daytona that run 24 hours forgot to get that memo too.
 
MAMotorsports said:
I am sure you have seen these rods but for those who have not, they are a cross beam design which means if you were to cut the beam in half, the section would look like a "+" (plus sign). While this has an interesting look and it is unique, it like every other design has pros and cons. On the pro side, it has good support under the pin and in the right application, should take power fairly well. On the con side, this design has most of its mass in the center of the beam where the two "fins" meet and has very little mass out toward the outside fibers( important). This gives it very little torsional (twisting) strength. With the new cylinder heads being developed, there is a lot of swirling in the combustion chamber(especially in Over Head Cam motors) and this swirling pushes on the dome or dish of the piston and wants to turn it in the bore. This is a HUGE problem in the Pro Stock drag ranks and to lesser degrees as power levels and combustion pressures come down. Any way, this twisting of the rod beam causes an unequal load on the beam which means there are areas that see high load and others that see a lower load. This can be a problem because the high load areas may exceed the tensile strength of the material and cause it to either yield (major problem) or to fatigue and fail after a period of time (still a big problem but it will last a while before failure). If you have a Pauter rod that is on its way to the junk pile, put the big end in a vise, put a steel bar through the pin end and try twisting the beam by pulling on the bar. You will be surprised how easy the beam twists.

Yes, they are a good mid grade rod but are nowhere near the best.
Tom, The pauter rods were specifically designed for all areas of performance and HP rating. They are especially good for High revving engines as the rod is the strongest on the market for tensile loads. I'm sure DON knew exactly what he wanted to do when he set forth.
Like any modification that is made to your vehicle there is a specific mod that is done for the specific application. There is a place for I and H beam rods on the market too. IT WILL ALL DEPEND ON WHAT YOU PLAN TO DO. High revs, NA FI. That is the difference. Plan your mods and go with what best fits your budget and power goal.
NOT with what some say works best from paper or personal opinion.
 
perfworks said:
Tom, The pauter rods were specifically designed for all areas of performance and HP rating. They are especially good for High revving engines as the rod is the strongest on the market for tensile loads. I'm sure DON knew exactly what he wanted to do when he set forth.
Like any modification that is made to your vehicle there is a specific mod that is done for the specific application. There is a place for I and H beam rods on the market too. IT WILL ALL DEPEND ON WHAT YOU PLAN TO DO. High revs, NA FI. That is the difference. Plan your mods and go with what best fits your budget and power goal.
NOT with what some say works best from paper or personal opinion.


Nick.....I totally agree with you. I was just trying to make sure "everyone" was comparing apples to apples here. Although similar in appearance and basic design the rods for a Pro Stock motor vs a street turbo motor will be different to allow for the difference in expected loads. Similarly, rods designed for a winston cup V8 are different than rods for a "Saturday Night" circle track V8 to account for differing loads. When any rod manufacturer (including Don) produces rods for a vehicle they look at the expected application and what type of use the motor will see then produce a rod appropriate for the specific application.

I agree plan your mods and go with what fits your power goal, however sometimes that doesn't fit your budget! When it doesn't wait until it does otherwise you may face disaster!!!! :eek:

Take Care,
Tom
 
MP3racer said:
Nick.....I totally agree with you. I was just trying to make sure "everyone" was comparing apples to apples here. Although similar in appearance and basic design the rods for a Pro Stock motor vs a street turbo motor will be different to allow for the difference in expected loads. Similarly, rods designed for a winston cup V8 are different than rods for a "Saturday Night" circle track V8 to account for differing loads. When any rod manufacturer (including Don) produces rods for a vehicle they look at the expected application and what type of use the motor will see then produce a rod appropriate for the specific application.

I agree plan your mods and go with what fits your power goal, however sometimes that doesn't fit your budget! When it doesn't wait until it does otherwise you may face disaster!!!! :eek:

Take Care,
Tom
Same here bud :p
BTW i mis- quoted you. I should have quoted your post rather tham MA's
 
perfworks said:
Actually your right MANY have seen this rod. IT is probably the best ALL around connecting rod on the market.
Alot of what your saying I cannot agree with.
I do respect your opinion on the matter but it seems to be biased toward opinion rather than knowledge with fact as a basis.
The intake charge , during the overlap period, will not cause the piston to "screw". It puts a compressive low rpm load and tensile high rpm load on the the entire assembly. That means piston, conrod, crank, And most importantly the WRIST pin.
When we are discussing tensile load we are meaning it will cause stress due to increased rpm, where the rod wants to disengage form itself. When you are revving high the crossectional area is the important factor in determining strength. Reason for this is because the load is "straight up and down" At that point you are only as strong as your conrod fastener, material and cross section area. (which pauter clearly has more of than many other rods out on the market). Pauter uses ARP rodbolts specifically designed for each application.
Your issues that you have with high and low load areas IMHO dont carry any merit in this regard. The Pauter design is a mainstream design which incorporates a constant and non tapering mass from the wrist pin straight down to the top of the cap.. It distributes the load evenly so as not to allow sensitive stress areas to develop.
Your example of putting the rod in a vice and twisting it is not valid either. It wasnt designed to deal with that type of "load". It was designed specifically for the "actual" events taking place in the internal combustion engine. Fact of the matter is they are recognized by racers ALL over the world as being leaders in High performance connecting rods. They incorporate a design that is light weight and durable.
I guess someone forgot to INFORM a "nobody" by the name of BOB NORWOOD, when he built the fastest MR2 in history. He ran the vehicle on the salt flats of Utah at speeds over 200 MPH consistently. Guess what rods they used and still use?
I guess the guys in daytona that run 24 hours forgot to get that memo too.

I respect your option and respect you more for your knowlege.This thread is turning into a really good source of info.I am in no way flaming or being rude.
With that being said,
You are correct about at least one thing. The intake charge does not make the piston turn but it does try to turn it on the power stroke. You are also right about the not really being designed to be twisted in a vise. This sort of like testing to see if a light bulb is good by dropping it on the floor. I only used this as an example of testing one rod against the other for torsional load carrying capacity. There are loads of this type the rod sees and it seems you might not know about them. Getting into the loads and how they are applied to all of the parts including the wrist pin will take hours and hours. Just because someone uses a part and makes a couple of passes down the salt, it does make them a big name or a top of the line manufactor.
We have pushed a few stock long block 5.0 motors to 600HP and didn't blow a head gasket, crack the block or kick a rod.Doesn't mean Ford is top of the line with there motors.Just shows some can get away with things that others couldn't.If there is a weak spot and it's just a matter of time if pushed hard..

About the H-beam and Oliver FEA test, Yes, the H-beam is from one of the BIG H-beam manufactors.I posted this because I felt that was what was coming next(H-beam design).We all know how well the H-beam is marketed and the word on the street is they are the next best thing since sliced bread.The FEA shows otherwise.

I wish I had a test on the Pauter rod, but I don't.The cost to have it done correctly is in the 10's of thousands.
 
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Thanks to all for helping me learn about connecting rods. I posted this with hopes of gaining the knowledge so someday I can make the right choice in forged internals. this thread has definately helped, thanks to all who posted.

Now if we can get some serious discussions on pistons, rings, and bearings for engine build-up I would be stoked! Thanks again.
 
TheJohnny said:
Thanks to all for helping me learn about connecting rods. I posted this with hopes of gaining the knowledge so someday I can make the right choice in forged internals. this thread has definately helped, thanks to all who posted.

Now if we can get some serious discussions on pistons, rings, and bearings for engine build-up I would be stoked! Thanks again.


I'm glad Nick,Tom and I shared the knowlege we have.Alot of people in this industry try and keep there knowlege to themselves.

Piston's, rings, bearing etc is a different story.Every engine builder has there own idea's on what works and what doesn't.

.
 
Yeah, engines are a users perogative (spelling?). I'm trying to get my list together now so I know how much to save for the build. I would love to be able to boost 20 psi daily, but then I'm looking at serious money, stand alone fuel managment and all that other great expensive stuff. I'm thinking about going with AEM PNP when i do the pistons and rods. I'm not sure yet, but I'm looking to boost at 15 psi with no worries at all but I'm sure I'm going to run into fuel cut like some people have.

Once again, any COMMENTS on pistons would be great. Such as where to buy how much what compression ratio to go with for running particular boost and so forth. Any good books that talk about this and I'll go buy them.

Thanks again.
 
perfworks said:
I cannot agree with this post. We have use Pauter Rods for years. Very very durable and strong.
I would like to know what you mean by "poor design". We haven't had one issue with over 200 sets we have sold thru the few years we have used them.
When have you sold over 200 set's. The first time you used then was last year at my shop in early spring 2003. Do not tell me that you sold 200 set's over the last 10 months.

Thanks again


Later.............Nick
 
MPNick said:
When have you sold over 200 set's. The first time you used then was last year at my shop in early spring 2003. Do not tell me that you sold 200 set's over the last 10 months.

Thanks again


Later.............Nick
He probably means he sold over 200 sets to different types of cars other than the Protege.
 
blackp5 said:
He probably means he sold over 200 sets to different types of cars other than the Protege.
I know what he posted. My problem is he as never sold many of them. So to make a post like that is not what this forum is about. As of July last year he only had one set of the rods. I know him and Andy build maybe one engine since then total. How many people on this fourm have built engines so far this year? Think about it? How do you sell 200 set's in less then 9 months? Also how can he make statements of how good something is when he has built less then 2 engines his whole life? I help him put together his first engine last year at my shop. Unitl then he had never built one. No he tells people what is good and how to do things. When are people going to be accountable for what they post here on this forum. I just do not like that people are looking to spend large amount of dollars on this list and they are not told the real facts by some people. Sorry to sound so down but it never ends with some people.


Thanks again

Later.............Nick
 
You can't nick, it's bulls***. Maybe he's selling Pauter rods as a side dish at his family's diner. I'm sick of watching him flame you and Beau at every turn. Of course he's going to be biased, which is understandable, but he is just about the most unprofessional vendor we have on this site.

My .02 and I really don't give a s*** if he and his cronies get pissed.

Btw the Oliver Rods are being produced as we speak, referring to the posts froma couple of months ago...see the link in my sig. You can get a set of BILLET rods and pistons for 1200, same price as pauter. PM beau about the pistons hell give you the run down. or give him a call.
 
Matthew said:
You can't nick, it's bulls***. Maybe he's selling Pauter rods as a side dish at his family's diner. I'm sick of watching him flame you and Beau at every turn. Of course he's going to be biased, which is understandable, but he is just about the most unprofessional vendor we have on this site.

My .02 and I really don't give a s*** if he and his cronies get pissed.

Btw the Oliver Rods are being produced as we speak, referring to the posts froma couple of months ago...see the link in my sig. You can get a set of BILLET rods and pistons for 1200, same price as pauter. PM beau about the pistons hell give you the run down. or give him a call.
Interesting post here. I rememeber when you came on this forum as Razor back in the day. We never had a problem or conflict with each other. As a matter of fact when others were harassing you and calling you a f'in moron and so on I always supported you and you for me. Now we have a problem?
Or you have one for me? We have never met nor have you spoke to me. BUT you know that I am supposedly full of s***. Thanks Matt.
Its cool, Forum negativity has never bothered me. I have developed very thick skin for it.
I can imagine that some here have nothing better to do with your lives everyday but to talk about happenings on this forum. It is quite sad.
You dont know my family and obviously dont know about me if you try to insult me in that fashion.
As a matter of fact it isnt any bodies business what I do with my personal life.
I have owned my perfomance company for years. How do you come on here bringing up a restaurant? I dont understand. But whatever. But you all can have fun we dont take part in this forum any longer. Even though it is only a hand full of people out of thousands that have ruined it is very understandable.
 
As a matter of fact it isnt any bodies business what I do with my personal life.
I have owned my perfomance company for years. How do you come on here bringing up a restaurant? [/QUOTE]
Why do people now post about you? Becuase they now see your BS. Before your slick posts made some think you know what you were talking about. Now they see you for what you are. A first rate big time BS/Con artist.

The problem is that your company is ony an Internet company. Anyone can call 411 and ask for Perfworks. No such company. How about a TAX ID number? Same thing, you do not have one. What about the US Post Office, no you have no address. The only way to find Perfworks is to ask the DMV to run your plates. Like an old Big Top Circus that blows into town for the weekend, you need to get a road map to find your business. Why do you think people can never get in touch with you when they have problems?

You are not an engine builder but you like to talk a big game about rods and pistons. When did you sell 200 rods? Please keep your BS off of this forum. Remeber when you BS about your 450hp Protege on the other forum. They kicked you off for life. You should be removed from this forum also. The BS you post never stops. Please come clean with the members or get this forum.

Thanks again

Later...............Nick
 
perfworks said:
Interesting post here. I rememeber when you came on this forum as Razor back in the day. We never had a problem or conflict with each other. As a matter of fact when others were harassing you and calling you a f'in moron and so on I always supported you and you for me. Now we have a problem?
Or you have one for me? We have never met nor have you spoke to me. BUT you know that I am supposedly full of s***. Thanks Matt.
Its cool, Forum negativity has never bothered me. I have developed very thick skin for it.
I can imagine that some here have nothing better to do with your lives everyday but to talk about happenings on this forum. It is quite sad.
You dont know my family and obviously dont know about me if you try to insult me in that fashion.
As a matter of fact it isnt any bodies business what I do with my personal life.
I have owned my perfomance company for years. How do you come on here bringing up a restaurant? I dont understand. But whatever. But you all can have fun we dont take part in this forum any longer. Even though it is only a hand full of people out of thousands that have ruined it is very understandable.
i looked up your "business" couldnt find a listing on the BBB, the yellowpages, or anywhere for that matter. sounds like you just created a name and called it a business. hope no one ever turns you in for tax fraud.
 
perfworks said:
Interesting post here. I rememeber when you came on this forum as Razor back in the day. We never had a problem or conflict with each other. As a matter of fact when others were harassing you and calling you a f'in moron and so on I always supported you and you for me. Now we have a problem?
Or you have one for me? We have never met nor have you spoke to me. BUT you know that I am supposedly full of s***. Thanks Matt.........snip.......
Let's see, we were cool before, matt was cool with ya, I believe boostisgood was cool(not sure if he still is) and now none of use are???? I have never met either of the others, but the common factor here is you. Or maybe it's just us huh? Stick to the REAL truth and maybe things like this will not happen.
 
Beau, you seem as if you have greatly researched the rods in question here..Would you mind elaborating on all of this in the Forged Rod Comparo thread? I would really like to get that thread to be the last word in forged rod research for the protege...thanks!


Also, I am inviting ANY vendor to post in that thread with the technical specs and durability of the rods that they offer.

http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63664

MAMotorsports said:
I am sure you have seen these rods but for those who have not, they are a cross beam design which means if you were to cut the beam in half, the section would look like a "+" (plus sign). While this has an interesting look and it is unique, it like every other design has pros and cons. On the pro side, it has good support under the pin and in the right application, should take power fairly well. On the con side, this design has most of its mass in the center of the beam where the two "fins" meet and has very little mass out toward the outside fibers( important). This gives it very little torsional (twisting) strength. With the new cylinder heads being developed, there is a lot of swirling in the combustion chamber(especially in Over Head Cam motors) and this swirling pushes on the dome or dish of the piston and wants to turn it in the bore. This is a HUGE problem in the Pro Stock drag ranks and to lesser degrees as power levels and combustion pressures come down. Any way, this twisting of the rod beam causes an unequal load on the beam which means there are areas that see high load and others that see a lower load. This can be a problem because the high load areas may exceed the tensile strength of the material and cause it to either yield (major problem) or to fatigue and fail after a period of time (still a big problem but it will last a while before failure). If you have a Pauter rod that is on its way to the junk pile, put the big end in a vise, put a steel bar through the pin end and try twisting the beam by pulling on the bar. You will be surprised how easy the beam twists.

Yes, they are a good mid grade rod but are nowhere near the best.
 
yea ive talked to beau many times and im amazed at what he knows. sometimes i have to stop him and be like "beau, youre getting a little ahead of me here"
 

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