FM Turbo Protege Dyno!

[Keith@FP]

I'm a little late coming to the party here, but hi.

We're starting off at 6psi on our car for a number of reasons. One is so we can get the car dialed in at that level and learn where the weak points are - such as the fuel pump. I'm hoping to get that fixed today. So far, the car has only done a half-dozen runs including the baseline just so we can get an idea of how it's doing. We've also got a new exhaust here waiting to go on that should help a bit. We'll work our way up.

Our goal is not to have the highest hp Proteg on the street. We're looking for useable, driveable power. Right now, the car feels like it could be a stock car only with more power. Having a turbo that spools up at 4000+ rpm will take away from that. This engine is more biased towards torque to begin with, and that's what is really fun on the street. We'll leave the 400 hp Proteg to spoolinmp3

Keith
Flyin' Miata Proteg
http://www.fmprotege.com

 

[smp3000]

Keith, great to hear your progress!!

Would you suggest those who have purchased the BEGI kit to get a stronger feul pump?

 

[Keith@FP]

The fuel pressure was dropping off on the dyno, a sign that the stock pump can't manage the pressure. Corky is going to be contacting the folks who purchased from him.

We'll probably put in a Pierburg auxiliary pump instead of going into the tank. Details will be up on the site once we decide where and how.

Keith

 

[1sty]

Just spoke with Corky on the fuel pump. he needs to do some more investigation since wshade's was fine. So he has another one to look at tomarrow. It seems for now some pumps may be OK and other won't, I will probably get another one anyways just to be safe and to anticipate upgrades in the future. I would assume spoolin already knows of a great place to put an another pump to help out the system.

 

[Keith@FP]

The stock pumps can usually handle lots of flow, but not lots of pressure. When using a different ECU and injectors such as the Link setup that Spoolin has in his car, you can go a long way on a stock pump as you're running more flow at the same pressure. Using an AFPR as we are, you run higher pressure in the fuel system and that's where the stock one falls down.

For example, the stock Miata fuel pump can handle 15 psi with a Link but less than 8 with an APFR.

Keith

 

[1sty]

Ok, but Spoolin does use another pump he doesn't rely on just the stock one either so like I said hopefully he can give US MP3 driver some info since no one else seems to want to do any R&D on the car even though it was the initial intend of the turbo kit.

Their are still some very important Questions that no one has directly answered.

1. Can the MP3 run at the same PSI as the P5 with its advanced timing? Or should the MP3s timing be reset to normal?

2. Will the advanced timing cuase an Issue with the Fuel pump more so then the P5s, lets also not forget one was fine and one wasn't on a stock pump to 8 PSI. Seems like this is a production problem at mazda with some pumps.

3. Does anyone intend on running this kit on the MP3 or are the owners of the MP3s going to be ginny pigs?

Bill I realize your team and the guys at BEGI make excellent products and want everything with your names on it to be a bullit proof system. But how the hell can a kit be marketed toward a car that neither team has ever worked on directly, and that is already being shipped. Does either team have any intention of using an MP3 to ensure the kits longevity or will you just focus on a P5 posibly forsaken all of your MP3 customers.

Until someone associated with the BEGI kit actualy does ANYTHING with an MP3. We MP3 owners which make up about 1/2 of the kits so far have to rely on those that have already installed the kit as ginny pigs without the appropriate experience to be doing R&D or on the one man you seems to love to work on the MP3 and knows that car inside and out, SPOOLIN!

Honestly Kieth I think you guys need to start working with Spoolin to ensure safety on the MP3s unless you want 2 Proteges in your bay.

I don't want to come across as A dick but I am getting realy pissed that the MP3 was the inteded car of the kit, and is being totaly Ignored in the R&D process. Not to mention no one is ansering these questions. The FACT that to make a kit perfect it needs to be designed for a specific vehical model and we know that there are some significant differnces between a P5 and MP3 which may cause some big problems down the road.

I am not skilled enought to recognize the problems with a kit or to see them creeping up after install, and this seems to be a common link on the owners of the MP3 that have ordered the kit. We are not tried and true Turbo technicians. We need you guys to ensure us that this kit is 1. safe for our cars and 2. intimitly intended for it witout issue.

Keith, Corky, Spoolin.... you all kick ass and the rest of us MP3 owners need your help with this. You all have more experience then I will ever have and Unfortunitly I need to rely on the combination of all 3 to help me make sure my cars engine doesn't become a moltant heep.

 

[NYCZMP3]

NOW THAT IS WHAT I LIKE TO HEAR...I NEED TO HEAR THESE TYPE OF THINGS...SEE I HAVE THE DOUGH TO GO AND BUYTHESE TURBO KITS NOW, BUT I AM WAITING...CAUSE THE ONLY KIT I AM REALLY LIKING IS terry's....he is by far more advanced hten BEGI FM and TRIPOINT...cause he put it on an MP3...so when i get enough to get my CUSTOM i will do it MY WAY!...(laugh)

 

[smp3000]

terry's....he is by far more advanced hten BEGI FM

Uhm.... Yikes... I'm not touching that one. Have you read Corky's books?

 

[1sty]

Uhm.... Yikes... I'm not touching that one. Have you read Corky's books?

I think hes refering to in the case of the MP3 in which he is very accurate.

 

[Keith@FP]

The MP3 will not be able to run as much boost in an identical setup as the other Proteg models because of the advanced timing. The timing will have to be pulled back to prevent predetonation. There are a number of solutions for this, one of which is to replace the ECU such as Terry has done. Will it be needed for 8 psi? I don't know.

According to the Proteg manual, maximum fuel pressure that is delivered by a healthy stock pump is 64-92 psi. To run 6 psi of boost with an AFPR, you need 86 psi. You can see how some stock pumps will be in this range, others will not. At 8 psi of boost, 98 psi of fuel pressure is needed, making it obvious that the stock pump will not be able to support the needs. There's nothing wrong with some of the pumps, merely normal production variances.

The initial 10 customers of the BEGI kits know that they are beta testers. It's impossible for us to purchase all the various models of Proteg (especially sold-out limited editions like the MP3) and run them in all environments, so we have to rely on cars we do not own. That's why the inital 10 were cheaper. What we learn from these cars will make the kits better for all who follow.

As far as I know, the "significant" differences between the MP3 and the other 2.0l drivetrains is the timing and the exhaust. That's not enough to make a huge difference, especially when you consider that the exhaust should be replaced for maximum benefit from a turbo system. Don't get too hung up on the differences, as they are not huge.

I must admit that I'm not all that familiar with Terry's setup yet. I'm learning about it. It's got very little in common with our design, but there are some things that are in common.

Keith

 

[NYCZMP3]

that is rihgt....there is only 1 minor diffrence btwn the MP3 and other proteges...the timing....but that is CRUCIAL, no???...would that not mess my engine up if i didnt know any better...


P.S....let me rephrase my last statement...Terry has put much more R&D into his car than any company producing these kits.....am i wrong there.....i odnt think so at all.....203hp WHP!!!..lol

 

[Keith@FP]

If the difference in timing is enough to cause predetonation, it's a problem. As I said, there are ways of dealing with this. Several ways with varying degrees of effectiveness and cost.

Terry's investigating the high end - lots of boost, expensive, high effort. Retrofitting a Miata Link to an MP3 is not a trivial task and requires spending lots of quality time with wiring diagrams - I've got to say I'm impressed. By the way, changing the ECU removes the differences between the MP3 and the other Proteg drivetrains, so he's basically working on a "normal" 2.0 at this point. Or more accurately, his own limited edition.

We're working on "production" kits. It's a different set of design challenges and requires a different approach. We're aiming for good street behaviour with quick spool-up, and this can mean sacrificing top-end power.

The correct solution for one approach will not necessarily be the correct solution for another.

Keith

 

[smp3000]

HMmmmm.

Replacing the ECU from my own experiences isn't a very cheap thing. I'm not saying I'm unwilling to do this if this is the only way to get the kit to work on my MP3, but will every MP3 owner who bought this kit have to spend an extra 500$ or so dollars to get it to work?

Or will there be a fix sent out with the kits from now on?

 

[1sty]

THe timing is the obvious problem but those who own the kits CAN NOT be the ones to determin the breakdown point or you'll have several very pissed off MP3 owners wiht moltant engines, Not to say you need to buy one but atleast put a kit on one.

What is realy stopping us from returning the MP3s back to a stock proteges timing? Obviously this question reveals my ignorance of modern cars but if its in the computer can't it simply be reloaded why does another unit, timing retard, need to even be involved?

 

[1sty]

As crorky found out there are some other differences, different O2 sensors come to mind. THese sensor may have different characteristics and this may be only the tip of the iceberg they may be more slight sensor, wiring, and componenet differences that no one has come across yet becuase no one has had to compare them.

 

[Keith@FP]

My understanding of the O2 sensor issue is this:
The turbo used in the initial kit had a different wastegate design than in the later ones. This meant that a different wastegate bracket had to be fabricated. The new bracket interfered with the O2 sensor. It was not an MP3-specific problem - it would have happened on our P5 as well. The location of the O2 sensor has been modified.

Please note that I am not saying the ECU will have to be swapped. As I mentioned earlier, there are a number of ways of dealing with timing. And none of them involve "melting down the engine" - if detonation is avoided, you're fine (short and simple version). It may not even be necessary. Those in the east with high quality gas (ie, NH) should have no trouble at all if we're not getting detonation on our crap gas in a P5.

Not all modern ECUs can be reprogrammed. Some, yes. The one from the Miata, no. The Proteg - probably not.

I do look forward to having an MP3 in the shop so we can install one of these kits on it ourselves and cut down on the misinformation.

Keith

 

[1sty]

If I could afford to ship you mine with a full tank of 94 octane I would.

Its not that I think the kit will melt the engine its the knuckle head tuning the damn thing, ie ME

 

[smp3000]

Keith,

I'm in AZ and will be getting my Kit in 2 weeks or so. Where in CO, are you guys?

 

[1sty]

Flyin' Miata
331 South 13th St
Grand Junction, CO
81501
USA

 

[NC_MP3]

Guys, give Keith a break already. I am sure they are more than capable of tuning a turbo on an MP3.

The timing can be changed a few different ways, some are not expensive. The easiest way would probably be something like an Apexi ITC, which is like $200 or so. There is the MSD programmable ignition for like $500 which can be tuned according to boost and also has like 3 rev limiters. You could also rechip the ECU maybe.