Fixing the alignment issue

[RatLabGuy]

At 27k on my '10 P5, the OE tires are really shot (like belt almost showing on rears) due to the infamous rear camber issue. It was showing really bad by only 12k but I was so pissed at Mazda when I found out about this "feature" I was determined to stretch them as far as possible. But the time has come, wife can't stand the noise and wobble anymore. Tires are totally shot on the inside tread.

Anyhow, my understanding is the only way to prevent this from being a recurring problem is to "fix" the alignment - e.g. replace the rear control arms w/ adjustable ones.
Sooo...
1 - Do I correctly understand that Mazda has still not admitted this is a problem and released a recall or even a TSB?
2 - Is there a preferred kit? I just want stock height. I see them ranging from $110 to $300, what's the difference?
3 - is there a Mazda-made kit yet? Any advantage to that over aftermarket?
4 - when I take it for alignment, what are the real target specs, since the OE specs are what is wrong?

The mere notion that I have to take apart/replace suspension parts on my brand new car just cheeses me to no end.
(idhitit)

 

[phunky.buddha]

1. Not sure, don't think so though.

2. I used the Topspeed camber arm kit. I'm very happy with them, especially at $120. I honestly think that all the kits sold online use the same casting and even bushings- the Topspeed ones seem to use their own configuration for the bushings (Hardrace) that are stiffer than the rest. Other than price, they're all basically the same from brand to brand.

3. Mazdaspeed has a camber arm kit (link 1 link 2), but it is NOT adjustable. It's just a hair longer than the stock arm, pushing your camber back out a degree or so. I honestly don't think the non-adjustable part of it is that big of a deal though, since the adjuster in the SPC/Topspeed/ACDelco/whatever ones are a PAIN to get to- they're practically nested inside the bracket on the trailing arm, and the wheel has to be removed to get to it.

4. The OE specs are correct. The aggressive alignment is part of what gives the MZ5 it's responsive handling out of the box. I went with a pretty aggressive alignment myself that would normally be considered slightly tail-happy, but it feels good to me. The car isn't twitchy at all to ME, but I love a car with as little understeer as possible. Toe-in on the rear tires helps to stabilize the vehicle so you can run more aggressive at the front without losing control, but I took it all out. The toe is what really scrubs your tires, and severe toe settings combined with lots of negative camber is what will destroy tires. Take out the toe and you can run more camber (or the same) without eating the inner edge of your tires. You do have to compensate for dynamic toe (wheels will toe out a bit under speed/acceleration, no easy way to know how much), but I haven't had any issues with these settings yet.

My alignment: Front, -0.9 degrees camber, 0.0 degrees toe; Rear -1.5 degrees camber, 0.0 degrees toe
Factory spec per the NTB system: Front, -0.7 degrees camber (+/- .5), .1 degrees toe in (+/- .18); Rear -1.3 degrees camber (+/- .5), .12 degrees toe in (+/- .12)

FYI, I'm lowered (1.25" front, 1.75" rear) on height adjustable coilovers with adjustable front camber plates too- so all my alignment settings (except caster) are adjustable, and I had to have the camber arms in the rear just to get back close to the OE camber measurements.

These are shots from my alignment at NTB; you can see where mine ended up and the listed acceptable range per their system:

 

[Rocket]

Can the rear toe be dialed out with the factory parts or is the camber arm required?

 

[phunky.buddha]

Toe is adjustable on practically every car from the factory.

 

[whyandrew]

I wonder if I'm getting that too. I only have my used 2009 for over 2000km, and I'm fairly sure the dealer put a set of used tires on it.

Unfortunately I didn't carefully check if the tires were normal when I first got the car. But right now the REAR-LEFT tire is obviously showing more wear on the inner edge of the treads. Also, on the 2nd last row of tread blocks from the inner edge, you can see abit of uneven wear (scalloping? cupping?). Oh, and the rear suspension also has abit of squeaky noises.

Is this possibly the alignment issue? Or is the rear shocks done? Any suggestion?

I want to get a new set of tires soon... so I better get this fixed soon so it won't eat up the new expensive tires...

 

[phunky.buddha]

Inner edge would be alignment, scalloping / hopping (like every other or every few tread blocks) would be suspension / shocks / bushings failing to keep your tire in constant contact with the ground.

 

[whyandrew]

Thanks. Looks like there are most likely a combination of things needing works on the rear left tire/wheel, arhhh
There is also a hummming noise too once the car is up to certain speed, which I suspect is perhaps the wheel bearings (same noise even when put into neutral, and no obvious wheel vibration with the noise). At first I thought it's caused by the tire itself, but probably not.

Now of course the bigger issue is finding a shop that is reliable to check & do all these without getting ripped off hah.

 

[phunky.buddha]

You can check the wheel bearing by jacking each corner up off the ground and trying to manhandle the wheel around. If it wiggles, it's likely that you have a bad wheel bearing...

 

[whyandrew]

Thanks. See if I can check that before going to the dealer on Friday.

It's annoying to have problems so quick after only have the car for less than 1-1/2 months. If it's anything major, I'm gona have a long argument with the dealership... arh.
Hopefully it's not tho. Perhaps just a really bad alignment on the rear-left wheel, which can possibly causes all these symptoms of inner thread wear, cupped wear and humming noise... maybe, I think? Well aside from the squeaky rear anyway, that most likely has to be the rear shocks, given the Mazda5 reputation for shocks.

 

[phunky.buddha]

Could be- I hope it's nothing major, just be prepared in case it is, and get a second opinion!

 

[whyandrew]

Could be- I hope it's nothing major, just be prepared in case it is, and get a second opinion!

No kidding! I'm trying to read and read as much as I can these few days about all the possible issues, about the parts and pricing... hopefully don't get ripped off by Friday at the dealer.!

 

[phunky.buddha]

As a general rule I typically don't go to dealers- but there are good ones out there. I do all my own work though.

 

[whyandrew]

I wish I'm able to do my own car fixes like you guys.... someday.... when I get my own house, out of apartment, I will be...

But really, the biggest reason I'm going back to the dealer now is I only bought this car from them 1 month ago or so... I feel like they probably knew and skipped over the problems at the first place. Looking at how bad the uneven wear is on that tire, I really think it most likely started right when I first got the car. Shocks getting squeaky in just a few days? abit too much coincident.

Once this round of issues got fixed, or if they're charging an arm & leg and refuse to warrant anything, I'll go some place else for sure.

 

[phunky.buddha]

Since you just bought it, you should definitely take it back to the dealer and have them fix it. I had a similar issue- which I think the dealer hid by putting a brand new set of tires on the car. I noticed some funny wear after 3k miles that I was able to even out through a bunch of balances and rotations, but took the tires off the car at 10k miles so they wouldn't get trashed, and ran junk tires until I replaced my suspension. No issues now.

As far as doing your own work, I did major suspension, brake and engine work while still living in an apartment. I just made sure to stay mostly within my parking space while working on the car and didn't make a whole lot of noise.

 

[whyandrew]

So I just got my new tires/wheels during Canada Day long weekend. Put them on yesterday and just finished a 4-wheel alignment today. The default spec ranges were exactly what phunky.buddha had in his pics.


FRONT == Initial / Final (all in degrees)
L_Camber == (-0.9) / (-0.8)
R-Camber == (-1.3) / (-1.3)
L_toe == 0.05 / 0.10
R_toe == 0.05 / 0.10

REAR
L_Camber == (-1.2) / (-1.1)
R-Camber == (-2.6) / (-2.5)
L_toe == 0.20 / 0.00
R_toe == 0.10 / 0.00


My old (used) tires that the dealer put on (so used for only ~3500km!!) had abit of inside tread wear on the rear-RIGHT tire. It was not too bad (but then it's only 3500km), still definitely noticeable. The rear-LEFT tire, however, was completely being chewed up, with the innermost tread blocks almost completely gone in that little mileage I've driven, and the surface also development periodic bumps. I guess this just proves again the toe has more to do with tread wear than camber? Since my rear-RIGHT camber is actually more negative, but the LEFT got worn way worse with the extra toe.

Hopefully that zero toe in the rear with "fix" the tire wear problem!! (idhitit)

Of note, the Rear-Right camber is too negative (spec is -2.3 to -0.3), but it's not adjustable so..... The alignment place said they did another Mazda5 recently and the rear-right camber was out of spec like that too. Hopefully it's not gona be a problem. I wonder if it's possible to claim this as a manufacture problem and get it fixed from dealer under warranty, somehow?

The front toe got increased (within spec), which shamefully I didn't even notice til I got home as I was fully focus on the rear numbers lol. I guess the guy just shot for the median of the spec range. Shouldn't be a problem, I hope...



And OMGGGG with the new tires, the car is so much QUIETER!!!!!!!!!!!!!...... at least on smooth roads anyway

 

[qcoffey]

Phunky has definitely provided some good info on the suspension settings. The recommeded ranges from the factory, for me have provided perfect tire wear. I did align it using the latest Hunter specs.

When I installed my springs back in February, I set the toe right in the middle of the specified ranges. My camber was 2.5ish negative in the rear and 1.7ish in the front. When I installed the new wheels and tires in May, I threw it on the rack and it seemed to be out again, even though the overall diameter is the same. I readjusted the toe(camber not adjustable yet), and the car rode perfect. Two weeks ago, I put it on the rack again because I noticed it pulling. Toe was out again. I thought it could be due to a suspension issue, like sagging springs, but ride height is the same. I adjusted and locked it down again, everything is fine.

Anyway, I have about 7,000 miles on the rims, tires and suspension and there is no odd wear, even with the negative camber. I do live in Baltimore, where the roads are horrible, which could be contributing to the toe issues. I have performed all the alignments myself as I have on my own vehicles for the past 7 years, but I would recommend having the alignment checked at least twice a year to ensure proper tire wear.

 

[phunky.buddha]

Weird- that camber is pretty wacky- the toe will help quite a bit though!

 

[whyandrew]

... My camber was 2.5ish negative in the rear....

so for sure I'm not the only one then!

Weird- that camber is pretty wacky- the toe will help quite a bit though!

Yea the rear camber is weird. Only thing I can think of is I had the 4 OEM wheels & old tires inside my car. I guess they are about 50+lb/each? But then I also took out my third-row seats which is ~60lb, and my gas tank is close to empty (so say about 60lb less than full). So can an extra 100lb load throw off the camber? I think we're technically supposed to have the car unloaded & with full gas tank for doing alignment, or at least I read that somewhere.


Arh, just noticed on the way home, there is a very very minor vibration at highway speed from the steering... probably front wheels not super uber balanced..... arh need to forget it, been spending too much money

 

[phunky.buddha]

so for sure I'm not the only one then!

Yea the rear camber is weird. Only thing I can think of is I had the 4 OEM wheels & old tires inside my car. I guess they are about 50+lb/each? But then I also took out my third-row seats which is ~60lb, and my gas tank is close to empty (so say about 60lb less than full). So can an extra 100lb load throw off the camber? I think we're technically supposed to have the car unloaded & with full gas tank for doing alignment, or at least I read that somewhere.

If you're on stock springs, yeah 100 pounds can change the height at a corner, which would throw off your camber. I align my cars with how I drive them- typically with exactly half a tank of gas and my weight in the driver's seat.

 

[tech_az]

I have Goodyear Eagle LS’s (P205/55R16) on my 5. They came with the car when I bought it used last December. I had the dealer check the tires for uneven wear a few months ago and they didn’t note any issues. Anyhow, I figure I should get this camber issue addressed when getting my JBR adjustable camber arms installed. I’ll be getting Koni FSD’s installed with stock springs at the same time so won’t be lowering.

From what I gathered in this thread, I should get the front and rear alignment set as per the factory specs to avoid this issue? My apologies if I’m not reading this correct… I’m a noob when it comes to cars.

Factory specs:
Front Camber: -0.7 degrees
Front Toe: 0.8 degrees
Rear Camber: 1.3 degrees
Rear Toe: 0.12 degrees