Ethanol free gas

[MikeM.]

Oh boy, a lot of misinformation out there.

First of all, ethanol is not subsidized by Federal tax dollars. It was subsidized for 30 years but the Federal Government let it expire at the end of 2011. Yes, that's the fact. Don't believe everything you hear or read somewhere. It's a free market commodity and it's still cheaper than gasoline.

And, no, it does not take more energy to produce than it returns. Just ask Brazil, who recently became the world's 6th largest economy, thanks in a large part to being the second largest producers of ethanol in the world and the world's largest exporter of ethanol. They can now export their offshore oil and ethanol at a big profit and their economy is doing better than ever. Previously, they had to import oil from other countries at a crippling cost to their fragile economy.

Brazilian's cannot buy pure gasoline, even their older cars run on a gasoline/alcohol mixture of between 20% and 25% alcohol. Of course some parts of older fuel systems were not designed with alcohol in mind and need to be replaced (mostly plastic/rubber stuff). New cars sold in Brazil have no problem's with very high levels of alcohol (they have fuel systems designed to run on it).

Yes, Brazilian ethanol is cheaper to produce, coming from sugar cane it costs about 22 cents/liter to produce while corn ethanol costs around 30 cents/liter to produce. Corn starches must be converted to sugar before it can be femented. But, no, the process is not net negative in terms of energy production. If it were, commercial production would not be viable without subsidies. But the subsidies ended in 2011 and commercial ethanol production in the U.S. is still going strong and is quite profitable. Big oil has powerful mouthpieces to spread their lies and, let's face it, some people are attracted to lies like flies and will continue to spread them (for free) until you have a large part of the nation who is grossly misinformed. And nothing is more dangerous than a democracy that is misinformed.

 

[mongo2004]

Oh boy, a lot of misinformation out there.

First of all, ethanol is not subsidized by Federal tax dollars. It was subsidized for 30 years but the Federal Government let it expire at the end of 2011. Yes, that's the fact. Don't believe everything you hear or read somewhere. It's a free market commodity and it's still cheaper than gasoline.

And, no, it does not take more energy to produce than it returns. Just ask Brazil, who recently became the world's 6th largest economy, thanks in a large part to being the second largest producers of ethanol in the world and the world's largest exporter of ethanol. They can now export their offshore oil and ethanol at a big profit and their economy is doing better than ever. Previously, they had to import oil from other countries at a crippling cost to their fragile economy.

Brazilian's cannot buy pure gasoline, even their older cars run on a gasoline/alcohol mixture of between 20% and 25% alcohol. Of course some parts of older fuel systems were not designed with alcohol in mind and need to be replaced (mostly plastic/rubber stuff). New cars sold in Brazil have no problem's with very high levels of alcohol (they have fuel systems designed to run on it).

Yes, Brazilian ethanol is cheaper to produce, coming from sugar cane it costs about 22 cents/liter to produce while corn ethanol costs around 30 cents/liter to produce. Corn starches must be converted to sugar before it can be femented. But, no, the process is not net negative in terms of energy production. If it were, commercial production would not be viable without subsidies. But the subsidies ended in 2011 and commercial ethanol production in the U.S. is still going strong and is quite profitable. Big oil has powerful mouthpieces to spread their lies and, let's face it, some people are attracted to lies like flies and will continue to spread them (for free) until you have a large part of the nation who is grossly misinformed. And nothing is more dangerous than a democracy that is misinformed.

Yeah there is a lot of misinformation out there. By the time you figure in everything it costs more energy to produce ethanol than it makes. And considering how much of the corn they are using to produce ethanol instead of feed, it is driving all our food prices up. Yes the government cut subsidies in 2011 However they are surviving because big oil as you call it have bought most of the plants to use as carbon credits if cap and trade ever comes to fruition. I know of two plants in Iowa that would have gone belly up if not bought by big oil. Don't believe everything you read on the Internet.

 

[MikeM.]

Don't know who's Touareg you were test driving but I call BS on that test drive. Its the reason I buy german cars. If you read the magazine tests and spend anytime in one, its one of the major reasons folks buy them is for their handling vs the US and Japanese brands.

To be fair, I test drove the Touareg before the last major re-design (and, yes, it was German made and designed and it did drive like crap). The new ones are reportedly somewhat better handling but that very heavy V-10 diesel engine bolted between the front wheels still makes it the worst handling of any of the redesigned Touareg models. It's certainly not even close to a CX-5 when it comes to handling.

Also, 70% of vehicles in Brazil runs on "ahem" diesels!. Its one of the largest market for diesel engines because its only like .75 cents a gallon. The emerging fuel in South America is hydrogen fuel because its derived from natural gas, which there is an abundance of in SA.

If you are speaking of the Brazilian light vehicle fleet (excluding semi-trucks and other heavy equipment), that would be a very out-dated figure. In 2011 less than half the fleet consisted of diesels and the vast majority of those were fueling up with bio-diesel.

And I can't speak to South America as a whole, but, in Brazil, vehicles that run on pure alcohol (95% alcohol/5% water) and flex fuel vehicles (E85, 85% pure alcohol) are gaining market share much faster than hydrogen and are projected to continue doing so into the foreseeable future. Hydrogen is the carrot on a stick the oil companies like to dangle in front of the public as the clean fuel of the future because they know it is not ready to be adopted for many decades.

 

[MikeM.]

Yeah there is a lot of misinformation out there. By the time you figure in everything it costs more energy to produce ethanol than it makes. And considering how much of the corn they are using to produce ethanol instead of feed, it is driving all our food prices up.

No, if it took more energy to produce than it provided it could not be sold at a profit. The fact that some corn can be sold more profitably as fuel than food is simply capitalistic market supply and demand. Yes, it makes corn cost slightly more and it lowers the price of gasoline slightly. But I spend a lot more on gasoline than I spend on corn. That's what people who believe in capitalism want. It was only bad when it was being subsidized by the government. That often distorts market driven economies in unintended ways and is why the Federal government did not renew the corn/ethanol subsidies.

Yes the government cut subsidies in 2011

No, they didn't cut the corn/ethanol subsidies, they eliminated them. Corn production is market driven now.

As an interesting note, it DOES take more energy to mine/refine the Alberta coal sands than it provides in energy but it is still economically viable because they burn the coal tar on-site to release the coal tar they can extract for refining into lighter products. So, for every gallon of oil extracted, they have to burn the equivalent of two gallons to get it out. That may not preclude it from being profitable but it is not a favorable ratio in terms of global warming, sea level rise, etc.

In comparison, alcohol production, is very beneficial in terms of global warming/sea level rise when it replaces gasoline or diesel. But there are a lot of misconceptions about this too.

 

[jrtouareg]

To be fair, I test drove the Touareg before the last major re-design (and, yes, it was German made and designed and it did drive like crap). The new ones are reportedly somewhat better handling but that very heavy V-10 diesel engine bolted between the front wheels still makes it the worst handling of any of the redesigned Touareg models. It's certainly not even close to a CX-5 when it comes to handling.

You're comparing apples to oranges. I owned an 06 V10 TDI (VW replaced it with the V6 TDI in 2009) and it weighed 5900 lbs and got 20 mpg around town, 0-60in 6 sec. flat. It handled better than any of the SUV in its class, except for the Porche Cayenne (same vehicle for 20% more money). I now own an 11' V6 TDI. Dealers have a hard time keeping any of the diesels in stock, whether its a BMW, MB or VW. I've also owned the 3.6 ltr V6 gas engine. If you want to compare, compare the V6 Touareg gasser to the CX9. Here's a head scratcher: The CX9 GT FWD, which my wife drives (and its her 2nd one) gets about 16 mpg around town and 21 highway is the best we can get. Towing capacity is 3500 lbs. CX9 weighs 4200 lbs. My 08 VW Touareg with the V6 3.6 ltr engine got around 17 in town and about 22 highway but it weighed 5400 lbs. Towing capacity is 8000 lbs and pulls my 4500 lb enclosed trailer like its not there. That's with a full time heavy duty all wheel drive system and I get 15 mpg when pulling that trailer. When I hook up an 800 lb portable grill to the Mazda (we use it for tailgating) the vehicle struggles to get 15 mpg.

Don't get me wrong, my wife and I have owned Mazdas for over 20 yrs. When we got married 22 yrs ago, she drove a Millenia with the miller cycle engine and I had an RX7 turbo. We put over 160,000 miles on that Millenia and 0 trouble. IMO, that was the best Mazda ever. Only reason we got rid of it was to get the dreaded minivan for our growing family.

You are not going to convince me on the ethanol stuff. I'm an engineer with a masters in environmental studies and race and tune motorcycles. I'm not gloating, I just know what makes engines run better and I don't find it by looking it up on Google. I know that internal combustion engines run cooler and more efficient with non-ethanol gasoline. Water in your engine is damaging, thermodynamics and metallurgy 101. The people in DC (EPA and white house) have no clue on environmental and economic issues pertaining to fuels. Common sense in DC is lost. Heck, liberals still believe that Al Gore invented the internet. (rant) Okay, I feel better now, rant over. I'll go back in my shop now to tune my FI on my race bike.

Just to put the V10 TDI in perspective, I don't think the Toyota, much less theCX5 can tow a 747:http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=05zRyoBbcfI

 

[lfkmazda]

Here's a map of the U.S. marking stations with ethanol free gas:

http://pure-gas.org/extensions/map.html

Funny story. I went to try some ethanol free gas at a station in a neighboring town since I was in the area. But last week the pumps had a new sticker saying "10% ethanol". I inquired inside and the cashier said they couldn't sell ethanol free gas any more because of Obama. He looked really upset. I asked him why thousands of other stations in the U.S. still sell it if Obama outlawed it. He had that "deer in the headlights" look and finally mumbled something about not really knowing why but said their supplier didn't carry it anymore.

The fact of the matter is that alcohol costs less than gasoline and most consumers are very price conscious and don't want to pay extra for it.

That map looks impressive until you zoom in. Even if 100% gas cost same as 90%, I wouldn't spend the time to drive in order to save that little money.

 

[MikeM.]

That map looks impressive until you zoom in. Even if 100% gas cost same as 90%, I wouldn't spend the time to drive in order to save that little money.

I agree. It's not worth it to drive much out of your way to get your preferred fuel when there is suitable fuel on your regular route. Not to mention the fact that the CX-5 runs perfectly fine on 10% ETHANOL. Yes, it might get slightly better MPG on pure gasoline but the difference will not make up the difference in the cost.

 

[jkristie44]

I have easy access to ethanol free gas. Haven't used up the first tank yet (dealer filled it before we left), but I'll try a little experiment. Real gas is only like 3 or 4 cents more a gallon for me. Lot of boating where I live and outboard motors get destroyed by ethanol.

I always get the real gas for my lawn mower and weed eaters. Hell, you can't get a weed eater to last more than a year with that stuff. I'd like to say it has something to do with motors being a 2 stroke, but I bought a 4 stroke weat eater a few years ago. It lasted maybe 9 months, and I only buy a gallon at a time, so it's not stale gas sitting around causing the issues.

 

[Gio26NJ]

I notice a lot of these ethanol free stations are unbranded and in the Northeast there are almost none! only 1 in the state of NJ according to that map lol.

I still stick with my local Shell station or I get from Exxon or Sunoco, I just hate that Shell and Sunoco tack on an extra $0.10 per gallon when using a credit card, Exxon doesn't do this and their prices are lower. Pretty annoying.

 

[MikeM.]

You are not going to convince me on the ethanol stuff.

I'm an engineer with a masters in environmental studies and race and tune motorcycles. I'm not gloating, I just know what makes engines run better and I don't find it by looking it up on Google. I know that internal combustion engines run cooler and more efficient with non-ethanol gasoline.

Internal combustion engines run cooler on pure gasoline than they do on ethanol????

Wow! The disparity between the knowledge you boast you have and your actual knowledge (more accurately your lack of knowledge) is astounding. You need to learn a little about internal combustion engines and alcohol/gasoline mixtures before you spout off so publicly.

I know you won't take my word on it (see photo above) so here are some links to get you started:

http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=73061
http://www.enginebasics.com/Advanced Engine Tuning/E85 Basics.html
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/basics/jtb_ethanol.pdf
http://www.raceone85.com/
http://www.whiteracing.com/e85.html
http://www.ksgrains.com/ethanol/ethanolqa.pdf

All of these sources claim ethanol blends run cooler than straight gasoline. It's a fact. So I don't know why you pretend to be an expert on the subject and yet claim the exact opposite unless it's because you have bought into the Big Oil Propaganda. They spend a lot of money to get people to think like you do.

 

[V8toilet]

I have way better things to do than spend hours researching ethanol fuels on the internet so yes on this one I'm not up to speed on the facts. I do have one more question; is there enough corn/sugar farming capacity to produce enough ethanol to completely replace gasoline in the USA? Last time I checked there was not.

 

[jrtouareg]

I have way better things to do than spend hours researching ethanol fuels on the internet so yes on this one I'm not up to speed on the facts. I do have one more question; is there enough corn/sugar farming capacity to produce enough ethanol to completely replace gasoline in the USA? Last time I checked there was not.

I promise this is my last post as I agree with you. I have better things to spend my time on. The ethanol lover is from the northwest so he's got a socialist/liberal agenda. Trying to force/convince folks into his way of thinking. This country gives us the freedom to make our own decisions. I don't need anyone telling me otherwise. Its called common sense.

I live on the coast where there are lots of boaters. One of my racer friends owns a small engine and boat repair shop. He makes a killing from repairing the fuel systems and engines damaged by the yellow gel like substance left in float bowls and injector nozzles from ethanol mixed fuels. While I'm forced to use ethanol mixed fuel because its a government mandate, I will keep using real gasoline as long as its convenient as its only 1 mile from my house. I use race gas in all my motorcycles and always ethanol free in all my small engines, i.e., mower, weed eater, blower, etc.

 

[Buger]

Some will try to convince people that anyone who thinks anything bad about ethanol is a shill for big oil but the truth usually lies somewhere between the extremes. Internet searches can yield a lot of info when researching with an open mind but many people's minds are made up one way or the other before searching.

If many of the links posted are from companies that have a financial stake in what they are trying to convice you of, they can't really be taken seriously much. The Kansas Grain association even tries to say that 10% ethanol doesn't even reduce fuel mileage although you won't even find many objective ethanol proponents saying that...

Spouting wikipedia "facts" from 2007 sources may sound good at first but after reading a little further, it just looks like someone who made his mind up already and just did some internet searches to backup what they already "know" as their truth.

 

[MikeM.]

The ethanol lover is from the northwest so he's got a socialist/liberal agenda. Trying to force/convince folks into his way of thinking.

I never said I loved ethanol - I'm simply correcting the misinformation that is being spread in this forum as fact. Specifically:

1) Alcohol does not burn hotter than gasoline - it burns cooler.
2) The Federal government does not subsidize ethanol - the Federal Government ended the 30 year subsidies over a year ago (and they should have done it sooner in my opinion).
3) The statement "Folks, ethanol is no good for any kind of internal combustion engine." is just plain wrong. Running alcohol blends or even pure alcohol in an internal combustion engine that was designed to run on alcohol will not cause any damage. There are lots of internal combustion engines designed to run on alcohol and they have been available for over 100 years.

It's these kinds of ignorant statements that have me correcting the misinformation. These things are not a matter of opinion. To suggest that correcting misinformation demonstrates a socialist/liberal "agenda" is so ignorant that I would be ashamed to be on the other end of that ridiculous statement.

This country gives us the freedom to make our own decisions. I don't need anyone telling me otherwise.

We do have the freedom to make our own choices. Why are you under the impression that someone is trying to tell you otherwise?

He makes a killing from repairing the fuel systems and engines damaged by the yellow gel like substance left in float bowls and injector nozzles from ethanol mixed fuels. While I'm forced to use ethanol mixed fuel because its a government mandate, I will keep using real gasoline as long as its convenient as its only 1 mile from my house.

That yellow gel like substance is commonly called "varnish" and the problem has existed for decades in gasoline engines that are not used regularly (like boats and motorcycles in areas with short riding seasons). It was a big problem long before there was any alcohol in the national fuel supplies. That is why manufacturers recommend draining the gasoline if the vehicle will not be used for extended periods. This is nothing new and gasoline without alcohol will not prevent varnish from forming if the boat is laid up without draining the gasoline out. Pure alcohol does not form varnish so it doesn't need to be drained between seasons.

What is this "government mandate" you speak of and how do all the stations selling alcohol free gasoline get away with it?