engine management
- Thread starter tyusha
- Start date
twilightprotege
Member
- :
- 2001 323 Astina SP20 (P5)
well do BLOODY TELL!!!!!!!!! 
twilightprotege
Member
- :
- 2001 323 Astina SP20 (P5)
has been for 13hours and 7 minutes 
hehehe. pretty boring until you made me do a happy dance LOL
hehehe. pretty boring until you made me do a happy dance LOLI need to do some research but..... ding ding ding , we may have a winner here.twilightprotege said:well do BLOODY TELL!!!!!!!!!
I'll get back to you guys on my assumptions after the holiday as everything here is closed but i should have enough info on disk to help out with the conclusion.
twilightprotege
Member
- :
- 2001 323 Astina SP20 (P5)
thanks nick!
Installshield 2
Gothenburg Superiority
The FS-ZE has higher compression than your 9.7:1, Andy...That may be one reason...the ZE also has a different intake manifold lacking the VTCS (as well as other differences to the North Americans)...and I don't know if the Aussie version has that...But you did have the ZE intake cam stock right? We do not...
What type of dyno was your base run done on? The ZE is rated at something like 170 PS at 6,900 rpm...PS is not the same calculation as SAE bhp, but somewhat similar to Europe's DIN bhp from what I have read...So in reality a bone stock J-spec FS-ZE is closer to 163 SAE bhp (which is the north american measurement for brake horsepower)...But that is irrelevant and I have never seen a dyno run on a japanese stock FS-ZE equiped manual FWD...The only credible evidence I have heard is from the OBD-I 626, Probe SE, MX-6 owners who swapped it, as well as the JDM ECU, and dyno'd close to 130whp with no mods other than the engine swap...and the ZE has a stock static compression ratio of either 10.2:1 or 10.4:1 (something in that area, I can't remember exactly)...
What type of dyno was your base run done on? The ZE is rated at something like 170 PS at 6,900 rpm...PS is not the same calculation as SAE bhp, but somewhat similar to Europe's DIN bhp from what I have read...So in reality a bone stock J-spec FS-ZE is closer to 163 SAE bhp (which is the north american measurement for brake horsepower)...But that is irrelevant and I have never seen a dyno run on a japanese stock FS-ZE equiped manual FWD...The only credible evidence I have heard is from the OBD-I 626, Probe SE, MX-6 owners who swapped it, as well as the JDM ECU, and dyno'd close to 130whp with no mods other than the engine swap...and the ZE has a stock static compression ratio of either 10.2:1 or 10.4:1 (something in that area, I can't remember exactly)...
twilightprotege
Member
- :
- 2001 323 Astina SP20 (P5)
yep that's right, we have 9.7:1 comp, but we do have the same manifold as the MP3 i believe (no vcts). we have the j-spec intake cam as stock yep
the dyno i use is dyno dynamics. i never did an unmodified run, but it should have been around 98whp w/o mods.
i'm guessing the difference between the japanese power and mine comes from higher comp ratio and intake manifold as it appears more and more that everything else is the same
the dyno i use is dyno dynamics. i never did an unmodified run, but it should have been around 98whp w/o mods.
i'm guessing the difference between the japanese power and mine comes from higher comp ratio and intake manifold as it appears more and more that everything else is the same
Installshield 2
Gothenburg Superiority
Yeah the MP3 does not have the ZE intake manifold...But both lack the VTCS, unlike the North American P5 FS-DE...
Man. Once agian sorry form my stupidity, I did try recearching it a while ago. What exactly is VTCS? From what i understand it is somewhat restrictive. Why is it? And another one, what is the difference between the mass airflow sensor MAF and MAP (don't know what it stand s for ether), and why some people are mentioning MAP as an upgrade. Sorry and thanks in advance
-Vik
-Vik
twilightprotege
Member
- :
- 2001 323 Astina SP20 (P5)
no worries mate, we all had to learn some time...
vcts stands for variable tumble control system. there are little butterflys near where the intake manifold connects to the head. basically when the engine is cold they are slightly shut, giving the effect of tumbling the air more. it's just something to help with emissions when the engine is cold. and there's your reason for it being restrictive. there is extra metal in the intake runners that disturb the flow of air and also slow it down (very bad thing)
a MAF (stands for mass air flow) reads the amount of air getting into the engine. MAP (i dont know what this stands for), but the amount of air going to the engine is already worked out by the ecu so at any rpm, %age throttle application etc, the ecu knows you have so many cc of air getting to the engine. the reason MAP is an upgrade is because it can be tuned easier. you can have 3" intake piping and you just change the readings on the ecu. if you keep the MAF, you have to get a new one (and they arent cheap). also if you decide to go turbo, the blow off valve is located after the MAF. this is a big problem because the ecu thinks that there is all this air that is going into the engine, when in reality it's going out the blow off valve. makes the engine pretty much flood with fuel.
hope this helps
vcts stands for variable tumble control system. there are little butterflys near where the intake manifold connects to the head. basically when the engine is cold they are slightly shut, giving the effect of tumbling the air more. it's just something to help with emissions when the engine is cold. and there's your reason for it being restrictive. there is extra metal in the intake runners that disturb the flow of air and also slow it down (very bad thing)
a MAF (stands for mass air flow) reads the amount of air getting into the engine. MAP (i dont know what this stands for), but the amount of air going to the engine is already worked out by the ecu so at any rpm, %age throttle application etc, the ecu knows you have so many cc of air getting to the engine. the reason MAP is an upgrade is because it can be tuned easier. you can have 3" intake piping and you just change the readings on the ecu. if you keep the MAF, you have to get a new one (and they arent cheap). also if you decide to go turbo, the blow off valve is located after the MAF. this is a big problem because the ecu thinks that there is all this air that is going into the engine, when in reality it's going out the blow off valve. makes the engine pretty much flood with fuel.
hope this helps
twilightprotege
Member
- :
- 2001 323 Astina SP20 (P5)
thunks!
Ok I mentioned this on earlier threads and i dont know how appropriate it is to the australians but...and i apologize in advance perf...MPI tuner. Although this is a piggyback and not a standalone, which may reduce its applicability in some situations, it has been very competitively priced. It also deals with the open/closed loop issue. It is also one of the few ecu mods that have been reliably proven, as of recently on paulmp3's car. This system also uses a wideband o2 sensor. For a limited NA or turbo buildup i think it is the best choice although i still respect the pursuit of a standalone for me it isnt realistic or appropriate. Unless u have some ridiculous NA buildup it isnt worth it, meaning 10+:1 HC pistons aggressive cams..port and polish...head work etc..even then a piggyback like the MPI could do most of the work. Yes it probably wouldnt be as efficent in terms of getting the most power out of the vehicle but it seems to be more realistic for the hobbyist/enthusiast whereas a standalone is better for a real race car. I do appreciate the wealth of knowledge this thread has created and i would like to see what perf comes out with though.
Last edited:
Installshield 2
Gothenburg Superiority
It is controversial on whether a MAF or MAP is easier to tune...To my understanding, a MAF sensor can be tuned more accurately when accompanied with a air temp sensor...MAP sensors are easier with boosted situations because the pressure is "read" directly in the intake manifold and outputed to the ECU...the ECU can "see" what boost the engine is being thrown, and incorporate fuel...It basically makes the fuel maps pretty logical and easy to understand...you can tune it for different amounts of boost at different loads and engine speeds...It is a little trickier for that with a MAF...Someone please clear this up though, I may have missed some things...
Also, with proteges: when someone mentions a MAP sensor as an "upgrade", that is a little misleading...The new sensor mostly is needed for output problems of the stock air meter (which is a MAF)...Some ECU upgrades puke when they are fed our MAF's voltage numbers...So they "upgrade" to a MAP, which are cheaper and easier to source, as well as generally easier to deal with for boosted apps...But don't look at like you will be getting more power with a MAP, the difference would not really be noticable...It mostly just makes life easier for turbocharged setups...You generally do not see MAP's being run on NA setups, even though it will still work...just some argue MAPs are not as accurate...
EDIT: Do not regard any of this...I was wrong on some parts, read Perfworks replies below!
Also, with proteges: when someone mentions a MAP sensor as an "upgrade", that is a little misleading...The new sensor mostly is needed for output problems of the stock air meter (which is a MAF)...Some ECU upgrades puke when they are fed our MAF's voltage numbers...So they "upgrade" to a MAP, which are cheaper and easier to source, as well as generally easier to deal with for boosted apps...But don't look at like you will be getting more power with a MAP, the difference would not really be noticable...It mostly just makes life easier for turbocharged setups...You generally do not see MAP's being run on NA setups, even though it will still work...just some argue MAPs are not as accurate...
EDIT: Do not regard any of this...I was wrong on some parts, read Perfworks replies below!
Last edited:
Installshield 2
Gothenburg Superiority
Also Andy, you are right about the BOV issue...Most mount the BOV as close to the TB as possible, which is after the MAF...and you can run into stalling issues...Some have tried mounting the BOV before the MAF, but you run into "bottoming out" the MAF by air surging backwards from the TB to escape...which causes erratic MAF readings, and drivability issues...
So in general a BOV with a MAF sensor is difficult.. with a MAP sensor you have pretty much no problems...an optional setup for an air metered car is a hybrid BOV which both vents air and recirculates it into the intake track...And that is mostly for the BOV sound, but helps with the other issues...
So in general a BOV with a MAF sensor is difficult.. with a MAP sensor you have pretty much no problems...an optional setup for an air metered car is a hybrid BOV which both vents air and recirculates it into the intake track...And that is mostly for the BOV sound, but helps with the other issues...
