engine management

[perfworks]

Bump...

Hey Jaime good thing you bumped this , i just got back and was going to look for it today. I'll post once i get back to work and have some time this morning.
BTW if i dont talk to you and others have a great and safe holiday week

 

[perfworks]

Alright now I have a question...According to your link Nick, Open Loop is referred to as a condition where only the maps are used...also that it is only used a WOT, and offers no compensation from other sensors (such as air temp, coolant/ engine temp) other than those required for triggering (engine postion sensors and load sensors)...which overall makes it not very adaptive to adverse conditions...

So here is the question...does a Protege actually use open loop only at WOT, like the fabled myth from years ago? I originally thought this was the case: Open loop at WOT, normal running at loaded partial throttle apps, and closed loop for idle and light load cruising...But I was defeated on that front, and was told that there was two modes only ...Open and Closed...used on a protege's ECU...

so is that link just referring to normal running and Open loop running as two seperate things, although they generally can be regarded as the same...I have heard some EMS manufacturers claim that mapped Open loop will use other sensors to detect abnormal conditions; does not use the O2 lamda sensor; and is not only at WOT, which that link claims otherwise...and those reps for the EMS's was one of the reasons I too realized that closed loop was not always used at every partial throttle application...and Open loop not only at WOT...

This may simply be a mix up of definitions, but can you clarify it at all?

Well i think i understand what your saying...
Just kidding. LOL.

EVERY single car and every single EMS is mapped differently.
Mostly what i mean is that depending on the application the ecu (ems) will have two different modes of operation ( open and closed loop) BUT different or various drive cycles. You can say drive cycles are another name for a "correctional or supplimental" maps that are used to fuel and spark the spark plug in the engine. These would include cold start, hot start, partial throttle, WOT , cruise condition and many more. Some cars will have up to and not limited to 12-14 different drive cycles. Those specific drive cycles will use the appropriate map for fuel and ignition lead.
Now the protege ECU is very complex. What i mean by complex is it is very adaptive. The EECV ecu is very advanced in comparison to some earlier model ecu's. It will stay in closed loop for as long as it can. In most cases (which some others can confirm also) the ecu will go into open loop "mapping" over 4550 rpm, very heavy load ( such is the case when in third gear and low rpm ) intial start up and cold start.

For example some chryslers like the SRT4 or mitsu EVO will go into open loop over 30% throttle regardless of rpm. Every application will differ.
Now when in open loop the only sensor that is disregarded ( for the most part) is the O2 sensor. Only because it just doesnt react fast enough. The ecu will most likely have latency in its reaction time also and cant adapt safely enough to rely soley on its input.
The "loop" is broken. What i mean by that is that the network of sensors are now like a peg leg. It doesnt have its most important sensor there to confirm it is fueling correctly. It is relying solely on look up tables to base ignition and fuel enrichment. (Lets not forget the knock sensor) Those look up tables still "confirm" the air temp and engine temp. They are at that point learned to be a constant because the majority of the time when you are in open loop it is after the ECU has had time to learn the previous drive cycles and infer that you are in the same enviroment. It will look mostly at the load (TPS and MAF in the protege case) and engine speed (RPM via our crank sensor) to determine how much fuel and ignition lead is needed. THAT is why some piggy backs that are on the market are succesfull in helping to produce some marginal gains in power. They will massage the airflow or load readings in open loop. You can either "trick" the ecu into thinking it is a different load value by increasing the output from the TPS. Or increasing and decreasing the airflow output values from the MAF. On many vehicles the partial throttle mapping is quite good. It is up top and around or higher than 50% throttle that it is basically "generic". That being said it is easy to say that you can fine tune your existing fueling map by manipulating the signal to the ecu. The MAF signal may be used to vary the fueling in open loop. That doesnt mean that it cant be done in closed loop. It just means that it will be overruled by the O2 in cruise situations or any closed loop operating cycle.
Again there are many things to do to get the optimal tune. For optimal seetings that will hold, on todays ECU's you need to be able to control the entire fuel and ignition spectrum without any interuption from the stock ecu.
I can go into further detail if you like just ask away.
I can also get into how changing various signal outputs will and can put you in "harms way" if you are not careful with the adjustment you alot.

 

[twilightprotege]

so would resetting the ecu on a regular basis help or be detrimental?

and, does our timing adjust according to what the knock sensor is reading?

 

[perfworks]

so would resetting the ecu on a regular basis help or be detrimental?

and, does our timing adjust according to what the knock sensor is reading?

Hello Twilight,
When you reset (disconnect the battery or unplug the ecu) you are basically going back to default settings in the ecu. Stock eprom settings that were flashed in memory from the beginning.

Our knock sensor system in the EECV units (Dont know if you guys run the same ems there) ( check to see if it is 104 pin connector or EECV sticker on the backside) is the only way to retard timing. In other words the ECU will stick to the preprogrammed settings till the knock counts exceed stock acceptable parameters. If and when the knock sensor sets the "alarm" the ecu will look up the correction depending on the drive cycle, load and engine speed. It will try to compensate with fuel. If it doesnt help it will also retard timing. It will usually only fuel enrich the mixture when in closed loop if the O2 feedback is reading leaner than stioch. Usually in open loop drive cycles it will retard timing only.

 

[twilightprotege]

will have a look over xmas if i have the EECV unit. what else might i have?

 

[perfworks]

will have a look over xmas if i have the EECV unit. what else might i have?

Really i dont know.
If you have a wiring schematic of the ecu pinout we can see.

 

[Installshield 2]

Well i think i understand what your saying...
Just kidding. LOL.

EVERY single car and every single EMS is mapped differently.
Mostly what i mean is that depending on the application the ecu (ems) will have two different modes of operation ( open and closed loop) BUT different or various drive cycles. You can say drive cycles are another name for a "correctional or supplimental" maps that are used to fuel and spark the spark plug in the engine. These would include cold start, hot start, partial throttle, WOT , cruise condition and many more. Some cars will have up to and not limited to 12-14 different drive cycles. Those specific drive cycles will use the appropriate map for fuel and ignition lead.
Now the protege ECU is very complex. What i mean by complex is it is very adaptive. The EECV ecu is very advanced in comparison to some earlier model ecu's. It will stay in closed loop for as long as it can. In most cases (which some others can confirm also) the ecu will go into open loop "mapping" over 4550 rpm, very heavy load ( such is the case when in third gear and low rpm ) intial start up and cold start.

For example some chryslers like the SRT4 or mitsu EVO will go into open loop over 30% throttle regardless of rpm. Every application will differ.
Now when in open loop the only sensor that is disregarded ( for the most part) is the O2 sensor. Only because it just doesnt react fast enough. The ecu will most likely have latency in its reaction time also and cant adapt safely enough to rely soley on its input.
The "loop" is broken. What i mean by that is that the network of sensors are now like a peg leg. It doesnt have its most important sensor there to confirm it is fueling correctly. It is relying solely on look up tables to base ignition and fuel enrichment. (Lets not forget the knock sensor) Those look up tables still "confirm" the air temp and engine temp. They are at that point learned to be a constant because the majority of the time when you are in open loop it is after the ECU has had time to learn the previous drive cycles and infer that you are in the same enviroment. It will look mostly at the load (TPS and MAF in the protege case) and engine speed (RPM via our crank sensor) to determine how much fuel and ignition lead is needed. THAT is why some piggy backs that are on the market are succesfull in helping to produce some marginal gains in power. They will massage the airflow or load readings in open loop. You can either "trick" the ecu into thinking it is a different load value by increasing the output from the TPS. Or increasing and decreasing the airflow output values from the MAF. On many vehicles the partial throttle mapping is quite good. It is up top and around or higher than 50% throttle that it is basically "generic". That being said it is easy to say that you can fine tune your existing fueling map by manipulating the signal to the ecu. The MAF signal may be used to vary the fueling in open loop. That doesnt mean that it cant be done in closed loop. It just means that it will be overruled by the O2 in cruise situations or any closed loop operating cycle.
Again there are many things to do to get the optimal tune. For optimal seetings that will hold, on todays ECU's you need to be able to control the entire fuel and ignition spectrum without any interuption from the stock ecu.
I can go into further detail if you like just ask away.
I can also get into how changing various signal outputs will and can put you in "harms way" if you are not careful with the adjustment you alot.

s*** Nick, that is amazing...

That answered it completely...I figured it depended on application on exactly what Open Loop mode did...Just didn't know if there was a series of switches between more than two modes during engine operation...The link made it look like in general there are more than two modes, so the author just uses a different term to explain an adaptive open loop running mode (he referred to it as "normal running")...and that Open Loop was only encountered at WOT...which was a rumor about the Protege's ECU almost two years ago...Those dudes were saying that there were two modes, Open and closed, and that everything below WOT was closed + WOT was open...This is probably just as confusing as the other post...ha, sorry

Thanks for the explanation man...and you have a great holiday(s) as well

 

[TXMazdaSpeeder]

so as to my understanding, putting the e-manage on an N/A engine would be a gain, and then when i go turbo i'll already have the ecu work done, correct? ro do i need to read the thread again.

 

[tyusha]

so as to my understanding, putting the e-manage on an N/A engine would be a gain, and then when i go turbo i'll already have the ecu work done, correct? ro do i need to read the thread again.

Hey. From what I understood so far, you won't necesarily have a gain at all depends on what kind of mods you have done. But yes you will be allset with an e-manage, however when you go turbo, you are going to have to retune it. So if you're definately going turbo in future, and have a good deal on e-manage get it, I guess. But once again that's from what I understood so far.

 

[Installshield 2]

To decide what route you are going with ECU upgrades you need to figure on what you will do to the engine...Generally all standalones (not applying to the emanage) will give similar power with the same mods and tuning...So the power advantage comes from the tuning, not which ECU you choose...You simply need to figure on what upgrade contains everything you need, and nothing you don't...A TEC-III's and EFI's can be regarded as mega computers to some point, but that doesn't mean s*** if you are only going to use it on a stock protege...it won't give you any more power than a E6X or a Link2 plus...

I am going to chop up a few articles I have that breaks down a couple well known standalone's and compares them to piggybacks...The piggybacks are great as well...It is just a matter of what you need for your level of modifications...

To my understanding the biggest questionable thing with the piggybacks is accuracy and resolution, but they are cheaper...so it is kind of expected...Fundamentally an emanage is limited on what it can do compared to a "standalone" ECU...

But the stock tuning of the Protege is not tuned for power...You will free up hp on any protege with a proper ECU upgrade and proper tuning...the fuel math and timing aspects will change between mods made, but the same ECU can handle it...Meaning if you buy a computer or piggyback now with little mods...you won't need a new one when you go with 10+psi...as long as you plan on what your future mods will be when purchasing the ECU upgrades...

 

[twilightprotege]

any well tuned aftermarket ecu will give gains because stock ecus are always conservative - they only care about fuel consumption and emissions.

txmazdaspeeder - you will need to retune the ecu for turbo if you want the best possible gains...

 

[Installshield 2]

any well tuned aftermarket ecu will give gains because stock ecus are always conservative - they only care about fuel consumption and emissions.

txmazdaspeeder - you will need to retune the ecu for turbo if you want the best possible gains...

This is exactly right...especially on economy compacts...Fuel consumption and emissions take top priority for the most part, but it gets a little goofy with a protege...Ours run extremely rich at certain loads, which is not good for power, efficiency, or emissions...But is ok for engine integrity (helps keep internal temps down, which puts less stress on engine internals)...so in my opinion the fuel maps are also tuned for reliability over a very long period....

So we can gain a lot of power with just good tuning, over say a stock E46 M3...There is a lot more restrictions incorporated into our fuel/timing properties than performance oriented vehicles...And the right ECU upgrades become very beneficial for power...even on a stock protege...

 

[twilightprotege]

didnt someone gain like 7whp just by swapping to a haltech or something ecu on a stock engine??? that might have been a miata guy, i cant remember

 

[perfworks]

didnt someone gain like 7whp just by swapping to a haltech or something ecu on a stock engine??? that might have been a miata guy, i cant remember

Unfortunately if that is all they got then it is not worth it.
That is why the piggybacks have a market.
It wouldnt be worth the extra cost for someone to upgrade EMS to get a few points. If however they were to increase volumetric efficiency with IE. cam profile, forced induction and such then yes it is the only logical way to go. Being that the vehicle has to be remapped from N/A timing and fuel curves to Turbo or radical cam profile maps.
I would venture to say that with a tuned exhaust (NA application here), upgarded cams and CAI you could theoretically gain about 35- 50 WHP. At the stock compression rate.
But you would only get those numbers as peak figures when adding a complete EMS. Then those numbers could double if the right head work, cam and internals were inputted that could accomidate a higher static compression setup.
My 2 1/2 cents

 

[tyusha]

Unfortunately if that is all they got then it is not worth it.
That is why the piggybacks have a market.
It wouldnt be worth the extra cost for someone to upgrade EMS to get a few points. If however they were to increase volumetric efficiency with IE. cam profile, forced induction and such then yes it is the only logical way to go. Being that the vehicle has to be remapped from N/A timing and fuel curves to Turbo or radical cam profile maps.
I would venture to say that with a tuned exhaust (NA application here), upgarded cams and CAI you could theoretically gain about 35- 50 WHP. At the stock compression rate.
But you would only get those numbers as peak figures when adding a complete EMS. Then those numbers could double if the right head work, cam and internals were inputted that could accomidate a higher static compression setup.
My 2 1/2 cents

Hi. This post got me all confused again. When yolu guys are talking about the upgraded cams, from the purely mechanical point of wiew, what exactly thad does. Why upgraded cams yield more power? What is IE? And also what exactly do you guys mean by right head work. Sorry for it being so hectic i am getting late. Anyway, I am also trying to figure out what is a compression ratio. Sorry for being so dumb:\ anyway thanks to whoever replyes to this mess, and i'll be back in a few to check the updates. Overall this thread has been VERY informative so far. Thanks guys.

 

[p5sundevil]

the only answers I know are by headwork you could mean port and polishing the heads, valve jobs done(anglle grind and seated and stuff) you can have the intake mani worked over to increase flow a considerable bit. At this point is where an aftermarket TB might also be usefull, if you have all these other flow mods done I mean.

IE, ie i.e. means for example. I think that is what he meant anyway.

 

[p5sundevil]

ok another question now, back to about deciding which ecu is for you, I have also read a bunch of articles in SCC and superstreet and others comparing ecu's and piggybacks and alot of time everything I can think I will need is on almost all the units.
Like with my NA mods Id like to hit 130whp maybe 140 (with the ecu) then after I get forged internals I want to run a smaller FI application that I can also turn up if I want to go to the track. meaning like 5-6psi daily and 10-12 once or twice a month at the track.

goal is to have around 200whp daily and so on.

For that would a piggyback cover me, it seems if it is a better model it would cover everything. Plus I dont want to lose my stock tach, even if I have to have an aftermarket one also =/ im picky.

 

[twilightprotege]

perf saying IE was intake exhaust.

upgrading the cams allows more air to get into the cylinders by holding the valves open longer (duration) or making them open more (lift)....so basically more air, allows more fuel to be burnt = more power.

head work is several things. making the runners from the intake manifold larger, smoother (not polished) and removing any bumps or sudden turns. it allows more air to get in basically.

compression ratio. you guys have a stock 9.1:1 ratio. the easiest way to explain that is that it means that at bottom dead centre (when the piston is at it's lowest point) the area in the cylinder is 9.1y (y being the variable because i have no idea what volume the chamber holds....it's just an expression). then when the cylinder goes up to top dead centre (piston at it's highest point) that 9.1y has been compressed into 1y. does that make sense?

sundevil - a piggyback will cover you...but a replacement ecu will yeild the most gains power and torque wise

 

[perfworks]

perf saying IE was intake exhaust.

upgrading the cams allows more air to get into the cylinders by holding the valves open longer (duration) or making them open more (lift)....so basically more air, allows more fuel to be burnt = more power.

head work is several things. making the runners from the intake manifold larger, smoother (not polished) and removing any bumps or sudden turns. it allows more air to get in basically.

compression ratio. you guys have a stock 9.1:1 ratio. the easiest way to explain that is that it means that at bottom dead centre (when the piston is at it's lowest point) the area in the cylinder is 9.1y (y being the variable because i have no idea what volume the chamber holds....it's just an expression). then when the cylinder goes up to top dead centre (piston at it's highest point) that 9.1y has been compressed into 1y. does that make sense?

sundevil - a piggyback will cover you...but a replacement ecu will yeild the most gains power and torque wise

Yup what he said

 

[tyusha]

Thank you guys, the info was great makes sense more/less now. Thanks.