EGT (detonation)question

napmsp

Member
:
03.5 mazdaspeed
I was under the assumption that the cooler your temps, the less likely you were going to detonate. That is also presuming that your A/F ratio is reading pig rich. From my experience my egt temps would be higher in open loop and the temps would lower about 100 degrees F when the car went into closed loop and ran rich. The temps would stay lower in boost or not when in closed loop. My question arrises because in an average egt temp thread, someone mentioned that when your egt temps start to drop under boost w/ A/F reading rich that your were starting to detonate. That didn't sound correct to me, but I've been wrong many times before. All information is greatly appreciated.
 
its really difficult to sense detonation thru EGT. EGTs will also drop with advanced timing, and rise with retard.

Any car can detonate because of either too much timing, lean mixtures, cooling problems, air or exhaust leaks or blowby gases....

Ive seen cars ping with only 3psi of boost running rich.
 
too much money man! few people can afford that! It is generally accepted that timing is the major factor behind exhuast temps, not so much A/F. It should RISE under heavy load though, especially since as boost rises the car should pull timing out, causing increased EGT's. Unfortunately, this doesn't tell you a damn thing, cause you will have not a clue as to when it's detonating. Better just listen for it.
-Mateo
 
What about 93 octane and ngk 7 plugs would that help detonation??
 
whew! 29 degrees! I'm running 24 degrees at 10psi.
I don't think fuel and plugs are really gonna help that much man. Might be the final factor, but not a major one.
-Mateo
 
http://www.sdsefi.com/techegt.htm

Most engines will make maximum power at an AFR of between 12.0 and 13.5 to 1 however, the EGT may vary from 1250F to 1800F and is dependent on many factors.

Uh, you might find that you can increase boost and hp quite a bit if you are willing to bring the timing back a little bit..

OK, here is ALL that egt is good for.

AF= rich, EGTs go down
AF= max hp, EGTs fairly high
AF=stoich (optimum burn), EGTs highest
AF= lean, EGTs go down again

Here is what you want to do:
NOTE: DO NOT CHANGE TIMING ANYWHERE DURING THIS PROCEDURE OR YOU WILL HAVE TO RESTART THE WHOLE TUNING SEQUENCE

Go to a dyno or a decent stretch of road

Set your starting AF to something around 12.5 or so, or as rich as possible while able to keep the car running.. 12 is about the most rich you can have a car and have it still run, but, the danger with 12:1 AF is that it can cause scoring on the cylinder bore by diluting the oil with excess fuel; you have been warned.

Note the EGT temp: REMEMBER, THIS IS YOUR EGT, FOR YOUR CAR, not for everyone elses: it may be HIGHER than joe blows, it may be LOWER, but its YOURS and thats all that matters.. The actual NUMBER is not the issue, its HOW THIS NUMBER CHANGES AS YOU TUNE THAT MATTERS!!!

lean the car out a bit, maybe half a point on the ratio, do a run, and make sure the EGT increases slightly; if it does, this is a verification that you are truly both on the rich side AND your 02 is reasonably accurate. If all is well, you should notice an increase in hp from the last adjustment. This is a good sign.

drive, and notice the response and activity of the motor and watch for low rpm knocking, bucking, etc

lean it another quarter ratio, watch the egt go up again

once again watch for any symptoms of problems

Anyway, you keep doing this until you reach an EGT that you feel is a little too hot or until you reach a point whereby your motor was running very good, but the last enleanment had it starting to act up or you feel the hp decrease. Once you are at that point, increase the fueling by around a quarter or half point AF and drive for a while there. That should end up being a decent and fairly safe tune.

If you are knocking and can't even get to around 12.5 without the car running badly, retard the timing and start the tuning sequence over.

Essentially, the EGT is going to tell you when you are at max. hp, which is slightly over stoich WITHOUT knock or scary EGT temps.

An EGT is VERY helpful if you are using a narrow band O2, since they aren't known for accuracy and the EGT is a good reality check.

An EGT is also a good reality check for WBO2s, since they have often shown to be innacurate as an absolute reference, but still good as far as telling you whats happening. The EGT gives you an idea of exactly WHAT the WBO2 is showing since the EGT will max out at EXACTLY stoich, whereas the wbo2 might read some crazy thing like 13.5 at true stoich, but there is no fooling the EGT temp curve.

At detonation, what will usually happen is your EGT will dive suddenly and your O2 sensor will read very lean.

IIRC if you are misfiring though, you will get the same thing. EGT goes down because of no burn, and all the unbonded oxygen will tell the 02 sensor that there wasn't enough gas during the burn to bond with the oxygen ie lean.
 
Last edited:
You can run as low as 10:1 then missfire may start to happen depending on spark temp, power, gap and ignition advance.

All stock evos run low 11:1, Turbo Saabs run 10.high:1
 
igdrasil said:
You can run as low as 10:1 then missfire may start to happen depending on spark temp, power, gap and ignition advance.

All stock evos run low 11:1, Turbo Saabs run 10.high:1

Ya, but 12 is a good starting point usually and if you are still running a NBO2 you aren't too far away for the NBo2 to start reading.. Even if you have severely retarded ignition or whatever, the engine will usually idle and run ok.

Man, 11:1? Sheesh.. That can't be good for the cylinder bores or emmissions lol... I had a friend of mine burn up a Mini S engine by running a very low AF ratio.. Cylinders were scored up, lasted about a month like that.
 
ion332 said:
Ya, but 12 is a good starting point usually and if you are still running a NBO2 you aren't too far away for the NBo2 to start reading.. Even if you have severely retarded ignition or whatever, the engine will usually idle and run ok.

Man, 11:1? Sheesh.. That can't be good for the cylinder bores or emmissions lol... I had a friend of mine burn up a Mini S engine by running a very low AF ratio.. Cylinders were scored up, lasted about a month like that.

11:1 on boost only. Not all the time.

Thats why you can squeeze an easy 20whp on the evos with an apex and stock boost level. Then you add intercooler piping and exhaust and then again even more power available. Add 3psi after all this mods and you are done...310+whp EVO
 
Back