Camber Question...

[UHATEIT]

i have had 6 alignments done at Sears, they are the cheapest, but I went in today and they wouldnt do it for me. I have 25mm spacers and they said that it wouldnt match up with their system, since it goes off stock specs, that i could go to a better alignment place that can make adjustments. Thats total bulls***, since I had a widebody Toyota MR2 with 1-inch spacers on it so it looked better and the same Sears did it fine there.

I guess I'll have to find another place to get it done that can calculate the extra 2-inches of wheelbase with the 25mm spacers on each side. I need my toe adjusted badly, it pulls to the right in the front and the back drags the outside of the tire and slided left to right when it catches the pavemtn, its feeling like the back end if dragging and at times its dogg-legging it

 

[bykeryder4life]

you just gotta find a shop that uses old school mechanical gauges to read your alignment instead of a laser machine that reads within the stock specs, and just have them check where your at currently..I am assuming thats what sears uses..

 

[Nliiitend1]

i have had 6 alignments done at Sears, they are the cheapest, but I went in today and they wouldnt do it for me. I have 25mm spacers and they said that it wouldnt match up with their system, since it goes off stock specs, that i could go to a better alignment place that can make adjustments. Thats total bulls***, since I had a widebody Toyota MR2 with 1-inch spacers on it so it looked better and the same Sears did it fine there.

I guess I'll have to find another place to get it done that can calculate the extra 2-inches of wheelbase with the 25mm spacers on each side. I need my toe adjusted badly, it pulls to the right in the front and the back drags the outside of the tire and slided left to right when it catches the pavemtn, its feeling like the back end if dragging and at times its dogg-legging it

The spacers don't mean jack to your car's toe values. You can always take it for an alignment without them and then add them again once it's aligned...the spacers don't chance your toe-in/toe-out.

 

[UHATEIT]

you just gotta find a shop that uses old school mechanical gauges to read your alignment instead of a laser machine that reads within the stock specs, and just have them check where your at currently..I am assuming thats what sears uses..

Ive used sears before, so it pissed me off they said that they couldnt do it this time since i did it before with spacers on my mr2. But most places around here use those electronic alignment machines. This shop said their's is very old and cannot calculate the extra changes and would need to be done manually, my oppinion is they are too lazy to do it. I found another shop who said itsa piece of cake and doesnt take much more effort, so I have them do it Wednesday next week.
Madvillian who also has the 25mm spacers, he just got his done at Sears out in Arizona where he was told that they have a new alignment machine that can calculate that extra crap that we need. While my Sears said there's is an older version that can't make the extra calculations.

The spacers don't mean jack to your car's toe values. You can always take it for an alignment without them and then add them again once it's aligned...the spacers don't chance your toe-in/toe-out.

thats EXACTLY how I feel! Tho I can tell after installing the scapers that the toe looks inward, i have no idea why this is the case, but if you look at the car you can immedietaly tell the tow is inward. You mentioned earlier how camber can also effect the toe, in this case, with the wheels spaced outwards the camber is much more negative, probably the extra stress on the hubs or whatever and you can see its negativity, maybe with this car that added camber is what is causing the toe to turn???

I used to have a 350z, it was lowered very low, and had terrible camber. I bought camber links for it ($45! why cant the ******* ms3 be so cheap!) Well when theose were installed and adjuster to rid the negative camber, the tow pointed inwards. It could be seen by looking at the car. The shop mentioned that the only correction for that rear toe was adding those little bolts they have to drill in and turn to get the toe to move. So that would probably be the similar situation with this car. A change in the camber appears to be having an effect on the toe.

 

[Nliiitend1]

Ive used sears before, so it pissed me off they said that they couldnt do it this time since i did it before with spacers on my mr2. But most places around here use those electronic alignment machines. This shop said their's is very old and cannot calculate the extra changes and would need to be done manually, my oppinion is they are too lazy to do it. I found another shop who said itsa piece of cake and doesnt take much more effort, so I have them do it Wednesday next week.
Madvillian who also has the 25mm spacers, he just got his done at Sears out in Arizona where he was told that they have a new alignment machine that can calculate that extra crap that we need. While my Sears said there's is an older version that can't make the extra calculations.



thats EXACTLY how I feel! Tho I can tell after installing the scapers that the toe looks inward, i have no idea why this is the case, but if you look at the car you can immedietaly tell the tow is inward. You mentioned earlier how camber can also effect the toe, in this case, with the wheels spaced outwards the camber is much more negative, probably the extra stress on the hubs or whatever and you can see its negativity, maybe with this car that added camber is what is causing the toe to turn???

I used to have a 350z, it was lowered very low, and had terrible camber. I bought camber links for it ($45! why cant the ******* ms3 be so cheap!) Well when theose were installed and adjuster to rid the negative camber, the tow pointed inwards. It could be seen by looking at the car. The shop mentioned that the only correction for that rear toe was adding those little bolts they have to drill in and turn to get the toe to move. So that would probably be the similar situation with this car. A change in the camber appears to be having an effect on the toe.

Spacers don't change your static camber, toe, or caster. They simply push everything further from the center of the car. Your scrub radius does change, but that has nothing to do with the static values of your alignment parameters. Your camber is no more negative with the spacer on, nor is your toe any more extreme. They may look like they are, but I can guarantee you that it's an optical illusion likely caused by the wheels' position relative to the fenders as opposed to stock...

Front camber and front toe are unrelated on the MS3.

Rear camber and rear toe are linked because this car has a sort of "passive rear steer" that adds toe-in under compression of the rear suspension (which aids in overcoming the outboard rear tire's slip angle, therefore aiding rotation). This means that with static ride-height changes, you have to re-adjust the rear static toe because the lowered static ride height effectively acts like constant rear suspension compression (at least as far as the linkage is concerned) and therefore creates massive static rear toe-in (in the case of lowering the static ride height).

 

[UHATEIT]

Spacers don't change your static camber, toe, or caster. They simply push everything further from the center of the car. Your scrub radius does change, but that has nothing to do with the static values of your alignment parameters. Your camber is no more negative with the spacer on, nor is your toe any more extreme. They may look like they are, but I can guarantee you that it's an optical illusion likely caused by the wheels' position relative to the fenders as opposed to stock...

Front camber and front toe are unrelated on the MS3.

Rear camber and rear toe are linked because this car has a sort of "passive rear steer" that adds toe-in under compression of the rear suspension (which aids in overcoming the outboard rear tire's slip angle, therefore aiding rotation). This means that with static ride-height changes, you have to re-adjust the rear static toe because the lowered static ride height effectively acts like constant rear suspension compression (at least as far as the linkage is concerned) and therefore creates massive static rear toe-in (in the case of lowering the static ride height).

my car is also lowered with springs that drop it 1.4 inches, I am not noticing toe issue on the front, only on the rears. I thought it was an illusion when i looked at the back since the rear bumper bends and curves inwars, but when i look at the car head on the back tires are inward.

Either way, I know spacers should not change toe, but The toe has somehow changed, might be a combo of the springs and spacers and camber issues. But I have driven a car with inward toe before and know the feeling, and can certainly feel it while driving on the freeway.

 

[Nliiitend1]

my car is also lowered with springs that drop it 1.4 inches, I am not noticing toe issue on the front, only on the rears. I thought it was an illusion when i looked at the back since the rear bumper bends and curves inwars, but when i look at the car head on the back tires are inward.

Either way, I know spacers should not change toe, but The toe has somehow changed, might be a combo of the springs and spacers and camber issues. But I have driven a car with inward toe before and know the feeling, and can certainly feel it while driving on the freeway.

Have you had the car aligned since you dropped it??

If not, that is the cause of your extreme toe (as I sort of explained in my last post). It has nothing to do with the spacers, I assure you. The only things that can chance your static rear toe (aside from breaking/bending one of the suspension links) are 1) static ride height changes, and 2) adjustment of the eccentric toe bolts on the rearmost lower control arms.

 

[UHATEIT]

Have you had the car aligned since you dropped it??

If not, that is the cause of your extreme toe (as I sort of explained in my last post). It has nothing to do with the spacers, I assure you.

when i dropped the car back in October I let it settle for 250 miles of driving, then took it to get the alignment, and they told me everything was in spec, and gave me one of those papers with the green numbers in each area. So they didnt charge me anything since they didnt need to make any adjustments.

SWo everything should have been fine I would assume. I didnt notice any of the issues until after the spacers went on 2 weeks ago, then the rear started to drag a bit and swerve. Car also pulls a tad to the right if I let go of the wheel, but only slightly. With the spacers in the camber is negative, but the outside of the tires have worn a bit, they apear to be dragging

 

[Nliiitend1]

when i dropped the car back in October I let it settle for 250 miles of driving, then took it to get the alignment, and they told me everything was in spec, and gave me one of those papers with the green numbers in each area. So they didnt charge me anything since they didnt need to make any adjustments.

SWo everything should have been fine I would assume. I didnt notice any of the issues until after the spacers went on 2 weeks ago, then the rear started to drag a bit and swerve. Car also pulls a tad to the right if I let go of the wheel, but only slightly. With the spacers in the camber is negative, but the outside of the tires have worn a bit, they apear to be dragging

Do you still have the printout? I've never taken anybody's word for it when it comes to alignment, mostly because most of the techs that do them at most shops don't know what the Hell they're doing...I've got lots of stories about having to go out into the shop and show them what to do on my cars to get it right. It ridiculous. I've also learned not to trust the "colors" on those printouts, since the manufacturers of the machines are the ones that program the computers and alignment specs for the same vehicle can vary greatly across the different alignment rack manufacturers' databases.

Your car's pulling/wandering behavior is much more likely due to the extreme increase in scrub radius from running the spacers. I know that merely changing from a 215 mounted on a 7" wide wide wheel to a 235 mounted on an 8" wide wheel made a difference that I could feel in my car (with an offset that is only 2 mm less positive), so I can only imagine what your car feels like...In the rear, while extreme offset changes like yours won't affect the static nature of your settings, the increase in track outboard of the hubs WILL affect dynamic settings, and will eggagerate the dynamic rear toe effect (i.e., the passive rear steering) of this car, and can turn a slight problem with toe into a much bigger problem that is more easily "felt".

 

[UHATEIT]

Do you still have the printout? I've never taken anybody's word for it when it comes to alignment, mostly because most of the techs that do them at most shops don't know what the Hell they're doing...I've got lots of stories about having to go out into the shop and show them what to do on my cars to get it right. It ridiculous. I've also learned not to trust the "colors" on those printouts, since the manufacturers of the machines are the ones that program the computers and alignment specs for the same vehicle can vary greatly across the different alignment rack manufacturers' databases.

Your car's is pulling/wandering behavior is much more likely due to the extreme increase in scrub radius from running the spacers. I know that merely changing from a 215 mounted on a 7" wide wide wheel to a 235 mounted on an 8" wide wheel made a difference that I could feel in my car (with an offset that is only 2 mm less positive), so I can only imagine what your car feels like...In the rear, while extreme offset changes like yours won't affect the static nature of your settings, the increase in track outboard of the hubs WILL affect dynamic settings, and will eggagerate the dynamic rear toe effect (i.e., the passive rear steering) of this car, and can turn a slight problem with toe into a much bigger problem that is more easily "felt".

for sure its definately something i can feel in the rear. Can that be helped by getting an alignment then at a shop that can calculate properly taking into account the spacers? I dont know much about thrust angle and scrub radius, but I can tell you it is definately a dragging or dog legging feel in the rear. Ive been driving like this for a few weeks now so I would rather spend $70 for the alignment and get it adjusted.

Can the rear toe be adjusted on this car to properly straighten out the car so it drives straight and smooth? No sense in wasting my time driving around for a shop if it can't be fixed.

 

[Nliiitend1]

for sure its definately something i can feel in the rear. Can that be helped by getting an alignment then at a shop that can calculate properly taking into account the spacers? I dont know much about thrust angle and scrub radius, but I can tell you it is definately a dragging or dog legging feel in the rear. Ive been driving like this for a few weeks now so I would rather spend $70 for the alignment and get it adjusted.

Can the rear toe be adjusted on this car to properly straighten out the car so it drives straight and smooth? No sense in wasting my time driving around for a shop if it can't be fixed.

Front (duh ) and rear toe are very adjustable on this car. A good shop should definitely be able to get your STATIC toe settings sorted out...but that might not entirely fix what you're feeling in the rear, since that is more of an issue with dynamic toe. You see, the passive rear steering effect is greatly exaggerated when running huge spacers because it effectively increases the moment arm of the system, which in turn exaggerate the effect that the toe angle changes exude for a given level of suspension compression. This is one of the many reasons that I wouldn't run such large spacers on this car...

 

[UHATEIT]

Front (duh ) and rear toe are very adjustable on this car. A good shop should definitely be able to get your STATIC toe settings sorted out...but that might not entirely fix what you're feeling in the rear, since that is more of an issue with dynamic toe. You see, the passive rear steering effect is greatly exaggerated when running huge spacers because it effectively increases the moment arm of the system, which in turn makes the toe angle changes larger for a given level of suspension compression. This is one of the many reasons that I wouldn't run such large spacers on this car...

I had 1/4 inch spacers and then went up to the 25mm spacers after seeing madvillian's thread. I probably should have gone with the 15mm spacers like I was initially going to do, they wouldnt have caused such an issue.

I know the front toe is adjustable, I just didnt know why the back turned out this way, but its a noticeable feeling in the rear. If I can at least get the car to drive straight and feel smoother and not give that sway back and forth that would be great. I drive round trip 37 miles to and from work on the freeway so I need as these tires to last as long as possible since they get a lot of use. I want to have this corrected before they get too bad. The longer the tires can last the better.

I popped into this thread because I was confused about the rear feeling when i had my alignment in the green and I didnt think that spacers would affect toe.

 

[Nliiitend1]

I had 1/4 inch spacers and then went up to the 25mm spacers after seeing madvillian's thread. I probably should have gone with the 15mm spacers like I was initially going to do, they wouldnt have caused such an issue.

I know the front toe is adjustable, I just didnt know why the back turned out this way, but its a noticeable feeling in the rear. If I can at least get the car to drive straight and feel smoother and not give that sway back and forth that would be great. I drive round trip 37 miles to and from work on the freeway so I need as these tires to last as long as possible since they get a lot of use. I want to have this corrected before they get too bad. The longer the tires can last the better.

I popped into this thread because I was confused about the rear feeling when i had my alignment in the green and I didnt think that spacers would affect toe.

Well, you were half-right.

They don't affect static toe, but they DO sort of affect the effects that the dynamic toe (on the MS3 and any other car that uses the SLA "Control Blade" rear suspension, like the Ford Focus and Volvo S40/C30) has on the handling and feel of the car.

 

[UHATEIT]

Well, you were half-right.

They don't affect static toe, but they DO affect dynamic toe (on the MS3 and any other car that uses the SLA "Control Blade" rear suspension, like the Ford Focus and Volvo S40/S30).

basically after this alignment, as long as I can get a shop who will do it right, will make it so that the toe is at 0 and be straight enough so that I should be for the most part rid of the dragging feeling and my thrust angle should also come up as straight?

I dont know jack about sway bars, but would it be beneficial to ad one of those to correct or assist with anything? Like making it straighter

 

[J-Villa]

This thread is getting full of good information. Especially the rear toe issue when you drop the car!

As far as my alignment specs, as asked by Nliiitend1, I scanned the print out the dealership gave me. As you notice the rear passenger toe is the thing I'm worried about.

If toe cannot be adjusted... How can my car be 1* off totally stock?

 

[J-Villa]

I'm actually starting to wonder if they shoulda let my car outta the shop with the alignment it got. I mean, it's good, but not great. The car will still drift a little on the highway if I'm going straight ahead (we got plenty of straight flat roads here....) Oh well... I guess it's just something I'm probably going to have to live with until my next alignment.

Is there any way to make the camber adjustable on this car?

 

[Nliiitend1]

basically after this alignment, as long as I can get a shop who will do it right, will make it so that the toe is at 0 and be straight enough so that I should be for the most part rid of the dragging feeling and my thrust angle should also come up as straight?

I dont know jack about sway bars, but would it be beneficial to ad one of those to correct or assist with anything? Like making it straighter

You should have ZERO static thrust angle with this car...there is no excuse for any shop that lets you leave their rack without sorting it out (unless something is truly bent).

A stiffer rear sway bar might help to minimize what you're feeling (since it will help to limit the suspension compression differential from left-to-right) but I can't make any guarantees, and you also risk upsetting the handling at the limit (i.e., increasing the car's tendency to oversteer at the limit).

If you want my advice on the matter, I suggest ditching the spacers and running a setup that doesn't test the design/engineering limits of the chassis setup so much. I know it won't look as cool, but the car will handle better, be safer, and stress your tires/wheel bearings/hubs much less than your current setup.

 

[UHATEIT]

the other guy was saying that toe is adjustable tho.

 

[Nliiitend1]

I'm actually starting to wonder if they shoulda let my car outta the shop with the alignment it got. I mean, it's good, but not great. The car will still drift a little on the highway if I'm going straight ahead (we got plenty of straight flat roads here....) Oh well... I guess it's just something I'm probably going to have to live with until my next alignment.

Is there any way to make the camber adjustable on this car?

You can get camber plates for the front, and adjustable upper arms (camber links) for the rear.

You have a serious cross-camber issue in the rear, and it's one that I don't see will be easily fixable by zero-ing out the rear toe. You have considerably more static toe-in at both ends than I would run. In fact, I like to run a slight amount of toe OUT in the front to aid in turn-in at the track. Your car's tendency to drift on the highway is probably due to the cross-camber you've got.

If I may ask, was anything in the car when you got it aligned? It almost looks like you could have had something really heavy loaded into the passenger side of the car...

 

[Nliiitend1]

the other guy was saying that toe is adjustable tho.

huh?

Static toe IS adjustable...

EDIT**Oh I see, you were responding to J-Villa's comment about toe not being adjustable...