A question of War

[sleeper_]

nmaino: oh, i never was accusing anything you said was "crap".. that was directed at unwrittenlaw. Your reply was so brief that I felt it was incomplete and you said you'd read through what i typed and reply to it later and that the reply in which you were saying this was to tell me that you didn't ignore what i said and was gonna continue on in more detail in a subsequent post, but i didn't see anything unless my eyes are failing me. lol

unwritten law: gee you really make an effort in staying on topic, really: you're just cluttering the thread and if you need to get the "last word in" on you so be it because for me it will end with the period finishing this sentence.

 

[nmaino]

Here is the link to a story that I was talking about earlier. Try to think about both sides of the story:

http://www.ucsdguardian.org/cgi-bin/opinion?art=2003_02_13_03

sleeper_: My reply to your answer was brief becasue it has been talked to death. Saddam has not complied with article 1441, and he should be dealt with. Article 1441 says that he has to disarm immediatly. The UN, by making exceptions to this rule (by certain countries; maybe for questionable reasons, see link above) have rentered article 1441 dead. The UN does not want to deal with Saddam, so once again, the US has to deal with him. This is nothing new, and if something is not done about it now, this will just keep going on and on.

I have heard today that the USA might take military action as early as next week. Update: President Bush, Prime Minister Blair and Prime Minister Aznar have implied that Monday is the last day for the UN to make up its mind. I think we all know what is going to happen, so I suggest this:

SUPPORT OUR TROOPS!!!

 

[low_psi]

"For it is the very essence of imperialism to turn men into wild, bloodthirsty animals." Ernesto "Che" Guevara

 

[saided18]

"Warning very long rant and if you wish to reply to my post you must read it all not just a few sentences"

OK i haven't read this all of the post in this thread. I am to lazy. but it's so weird that all the Canadians are bashing Americans.

It's a fact that the world dislikes the US b/c we are the most powerful. Hey that not our fault we have so much power. what are we suppose to do? But it's also a funny thing that all the countries that hate the USA also are trying so hard to get trade relations with the US. hmmmm we are good enough to to trade with but not good enough for any thing else.

The reason why every one see the US as arogrant is b/c we believe in what we say and we say and will fight tooth and nail to get our goals accomplished. Yet again that not our fault. just the way we are.


Also the USA goes and fights Wars on Moral causes and people can not believe that. They have to believe that the USA has some evil secret motive for going to war. It's crazy. What motive did we go to war in Kosova??? B/c the Albanian popultion was being oppressed. They were not allowed to vote, they weren't allowed to go to college, they weren't allowed to do anything. The Clinton saw this and acted on it. and if any one says he had other motives i will slap.

The in Iraq is complicated. Alot of countries around the world are scared. they don't want to support the US b/c they are affraid of Arab back lash. They are affriad the arabs will punish them by raising oil prices. and countires like Italy can't have that happen.

And then people say well France, Germany and Russia are all agianst this war. Yes they are and why is that well lets take France and Russia. HMMM why would they not want war. Well Saddam owes Russia 3 billion USD. if saddam is taken out the new government will not have to pay this back. Also France and Russia have the sole right to huge oil fields in Iraq. and if war happen we they won't have them any more. Also France has a hisorty of beening VERY friendly with saddam.

Now for Germany, the Shrouder (sp?) make it a key point in his election bit to be agianst war and said he will do anything in it's power to stop the US and many people say that is what got him re-elected. his anti-war policy. Since he made such a strong stance on the War issue he can not go back. he has to stick to his anti war policy b/c he if sides with the USA then he will be seen as a liar. Think of it. Remember when Bush senior said "Read my lips no new taxes" and he went and raised taxes any way? what happened to him. Peopl ehated him and called hiim a lair and elected Clinton.

Also people say look so many people are protesting the War. well lets look at that too. These are the same people that chain themselves to trees and go and Kill doctors b/c they give abortions. They are the same people we see on the new and say they are crazy. So why should we take them seriously now?

A week ago i just a protest by a Women's rights group of the War. They said the war is unjust. HMMM so a group that is fighting for womens rights is protesting a war agianst a man that beats, kills and rapes women. HMMM that sounds smart.

See most of the people that are protesting the war and liberals. That why 90% of Hollywood is agianst the war. These are poeple that HATED Bush before this all happened and are just attacking him not b/c they disagree with him but b/c they hate him so much that any thing he says they will be agianst.

Also you have countries like Mexico and Turkey and are "on the fence". yeah they don't care about they war they want something for their vote. Mexico want very easy imagration laws for mexicans and turkey wants 30 billion dollars in US aid. And if they don't get what they want they will vote no

So i say to every one when they hear some one attacking Bush so hard just look deeper and see what their motives are.

and one last thing. THE WAR IS NOT FULLY ABOUT OIL!!!! i can't stand when people say this. Last Gulf war saddam went and destroyed ALL the oil field in Kuwait. He set fire to them and let them burn. Obvious Kuwait still has oil but alot of the oil fields were destroy.

I believe fully in President Bush. He hasn't done us wrong yet. he has been doing all the right things. I like his style. When he feels strongly about something he doesn't let any one stand in his way. He doesn't bend to pressure from other countries. He stand strong. and that a good quality.

ok i'm done. sorry just had to vent.

 

[TexP5]

Love the quote mx3ownzjoo! In Houston this morning a woman of French descent who has lived here for 23 years awoke to find "SCUM GO BACK TO FRANCE!" spray painted on her garage door. I dislike what this war "conversation" is doing to America.

Without getting into everyone's points about what Saddam has done, who has sold weapons to whom, whether or not we'll be more or less subject to terrorism after this war/attack/police action/strategic strike. I'd like to view this is the simplest terms possible. If ANY nation on earth said "We don't like George Bush's policies and unless you throw him out we'll come in and blow your asses up." How would we react? (and don't give me the crap about Saddam's a dictator and it's different! Iraq is a sovereign nation, they have their own rules, they're living by those rules)

We don't have this right people. No one made the U.S. the world's protector and those like our President who believe this are missing every lesson learned and earned by the valor and honor of our military actions in the past. Americans fought and died so that powerful nations would NOT simply overrun other nations on a whim. We do not launch unilateral strikes against soveriegn nations without provocation. Admittedly that proclaimed "provocation" has been stretched extremely thin in several of our wars/police actions whatever, but never has there been an attack launched simply because we don't like or trust the ruling government. We did not unliaterally invade North Vietnam or Korea when their governments were actively pursuing policies of local aggression. How do we justify this now?

The fact that Saddam "might" do something to us doesn't cut it. Saddam is worthy of a serious covert attemtpt to get him out, he is not worth a war that will cost billions of dollars, thousands of lives and DECADES of an American occupying force in the middle east.


I love America, support abolutely every person in our military and wish them nothing but the best of luck if they come into harm's way. But this action is neither necessary nor morally valid.

(Zips on flameproof jacket)

And Changing the subject to something you'll all agree with...Gawd Dang were the last two laps of the Darlington race KICK ASS or what????

 

[saided18]

But I have to admire his courage to stand up in front of Mr. America.

Yeah really?? Do you also admire his "courage" to gas 6000 people to death just because he felt like it??? That is the most sickest thing i heard any one say. Of course he is going to be "defiant". Every one id untill the troops start coming. i.e President of Serbia.

I like how he called on Bush to have a public debate. I think they should have a debate!

This is also crazy. Would you have a debate with a sick child molester (sp?)? huh? would you?

i feel your comments come from a hate of the USA. And that is sad that our neighbor would have hate for us.

 

[low_psi]

Love the quote mx3ownzjoo! In Houston this morning a woman of French descent who has lived here for 23 years awoke to find "SCUM GO BACK TO FRANCE!" spray painted on her garage door.

wow...we have too many redneck's in houston...

 

[saided18]

We don't have this right people. No one made the U.S. the world's protector

Well yes evey one has. We are made this by default b/c no one esle will act. Look the whole reason the USA feels s strong to take out Saddam is....BECUASE WE MADE HIM!!!1 we are the ones that sold him all of his weapons back in he 80's when we was fighting Iran. So when the Presidet says WE KNOW he says these weapson this is because we sold them to him. We created him and we wil destroy him.

The fact that Saddam "might" do something to us doesn't cut it. Saddam is worthy of a serious covert attemtpt to get him out, he is not worth a war that will cost billions of dollars, thousands of lives and DECADES of an American occupying force in the middle east.

Ok i just wonde were you have been for the past 20 years?? Its not the fact that he MIGHT do something. It's the fact that given a chance he WILL do something. it has been proven time and time again. Also seems it wil be a short war like the Gulf war. Hell Iraqi solider already tries to gve up last week. hahahaahah

Also you say he is a nation with his laws right. Well there are internation laws that superseed his laws. They are called crimes against humanity.

The moral is this. we must deal wth this problem and deal with it now. And what i say should be next after the war in Iraq is go deal with with he Isreal Palistinian conflict. And i feel Bush will. I feel he will demand Isreal give the land back and treat the Palistinians like humans not like dogs.

And for every one that thinks i'm just some kid that is running off his mouth and doesn't think about the troop or the death toll blah blah blah. We to all of them i say this: Two of my best friends shipped out a week ago to kuwait to go fight.

and you want to know what they say?? They say this is something that we must do. and they believe 100% in their heart that what they are doing is the right thing. and that is all tht matters t me!!!!


the moral is this.

 

[nmaino]

Great to see that this thread is alive again! Things are starting to heat up, I think that next week will be real bad. Thats keep this rolling.

TexP5: People also don't have the right to live in fear of "their" government either.

 

[saided18]

Yeah i like a good debate. b/c you learn newthings and see other sides of and topic. Things are getting scary and i just pray to god that every thing turns out good. and i think it will.

And the funny thing is if every thing turns out good and we win the war, all the pople that agians him will start hailing him as a Hero!!!

 

[Witchdoktor]

Time for my 2 cents........

Wheather you agree or disagree we're going in. I watched Dick Cheney this morning on the morning political shows. He laid it out, allies or no allies, we're going in. A lot of politics going on right now on the surface but serious war planning going on behind the scenes along with stuff we will never know.

Personally, I look at it like this, if someone is a definite threat to you, do ask someone around for permission to protect yourself and go **** that person up before he ***** you up. HELL NO! If the intelligence is there, we go in and clean house. Civilian casualities and all. Sounds evil but if it comes down to us versus them..... say hello to Allah for me Saddam. That analogy is basic and doesn't directly correlate to the current situation. Many factors and politics come into play. But the principle is fundamental.

I say we see bombs over Baghdad by next weekend but I could be wrong. At least a got a post in to show my sig.

 

[TexP5]

People have a right not to fear their own government? lol...In all honesty I fear an American administration that will ignore a large protest movement in the country, ignore the voices of the vast majority of the international community and ignore the unbelievably disastrous effects this war will have on our economy and the economy of our chilcren's generation, in order to act unlaterally against a perceived threat.

I'm not a pacifist or a loony left wing liberal. I fully support military action when appropriate and supported the actions in Kosovo and even Somali on human rights grounds. But this is of an entirely different scope. This is not sound policy making but rather a dogmatic crusade by an egotistic President.

Someone wrote that International laws supersede Iraqi laws. Given that, we need to keep in mind that the international community by a vast majority does not support this war in response to Saddam's transgressions of international law. We are single handedly saying "The United States now enforces international law, even if the international community disagrees." How is this right?

That's the question that Mr. Bush seems to be doing his absolutely best to avoid answering. He believes he knows better than anyone else. Isn't that the behavior of a dictator?

 

[nmaino]

TexP5: Why are you laughing at that statement? If you fear our government, then guess what, you can vote them out. The people of Iraq cannot vote Saddam out of office, they have to live day and night under his thumb. The majority of Americans (2/3 according to NBC) think that Saddam needs to go and are willing to go to war to remove him. I could care less what your party stance is, and so should you on issues such as these. If you support wars based on human rights, then you should wake up and smell the coffee. Saddam has killed thousands of his people by starving them or by gasing them. His "government" rapes daughters and wives of people who speak out agianst him. The United States has enforced international law for years (we, yes, you and I, pay for over 20% of the UN bill). When there are problems in this world, people from all nations look to the US to "figure it out," and "right the wrongs." The UN is nothing without the US and our money. And thats the truth.

 

[JunkPunch]

One problem with the US attacking Iraq, without U.N. support, is the the religious issues.

Islamic terrorists attack the US because they feel the US is an "enemy of Islam", targets Muslims and is trying to destroy Islam. Meanwhile we have a Christian leader talking about God and quoting the Bible in public speeches. Then the US is going to go into a Muslim country and kill probably thousands of Muslims.

This is supposed to REDUCE terrorism? All this would do is feed the fire that Osama, etc, use to build hate towards the US. It doesn't matter that it's not true, it just matters what they think.

 

[TexP5]

Wasn't laughing at the statement I was laughing at the concept and my feelings about our current administration. More of a chuckle to myself than a laugh at the comment.

I'm out of this one...we're all already convinced of our viewpoints. I think you're all nuts and you all must think I'm the infamous and hated "LIBERAL." Whatever...GW is going to kill a bunch of young Americans and ruin the economy for several generationsno matter what I say or think. Just hope that none of the dead are your friends or siblings and in the future when you're children or grandchildren need health care that we cannot provide the fact that We "Got rid of Saddam" lessens your pain.

 

[nmaino]

TexP5: So now the concept is funny? Where are you going with this? This conflict is not going to kill this Welfare state that FDR created for us (including HealthCare). The economy has seemed to do just fine after the Korean, Vietnam, and the first Gulf conflict. If you think that "we" all think that you are a "liberal" then go ahead. Too bad that YOU have to bring the party system into this thread when nobody else has. Why are you leaving? Are you afraid to fight for what you believe? Or do you just not care enough about your view points to agrue them?

Question to all the people who think that this is going to be a long conflict: Did you forget that the last fight we had with Saddam lasted a hundred hours? Why do you constantly think this is going to be a long and drawn out battle (I'm not talking about the rebuilding of Iraq, just the military conflict between his army and ours)? Where is your justification and historical backing for this? Why do you think "thousands" of Americans, Englishmen and Spanards are going to die? Please, enlighten me.

Mx30wnzj00: I hate to say this but here it goes, "******* Irene," Mike Durant.

 

[saided18]

TexP5: Why do you think the VAST majority of the World are with the US? pleas go back and read my first post in the htread. i think it was page 6 or 7 and i explain why the worldis not with us.


but i'll give you the short version

France: the French have been long Alies with Iraq. There is long history between these two countries. all threw the 90's France tried many times to lift the sactions on Iraq when Saddam never fully complied with the first Gulf War UN resolution. And why is this. yes you guessed it OIL. France owns huge oil fields in Iraq and if a war happens. those oil fields are not France's any more. Also France sell Iraq machines and parts for tanks and stuff liek that.

Russia. Russia also owns oild fields in Iraq. Also Saddam owe Russia like 3-4 billion dollars. And guess what if saddam goes then Iraq qill not have to pay that money back. thats alot o money to loose.


Germany: The Prime minister made it his center peice of his re-election campain that he would be against ANY US lead war against Iraq. He can't go back on his word. That would be commiting Political suicide. Remember Bush's "Read my lips no new taxes"? he went and raised taxes any way and was not re-elected.


Most other countries: They either want some thing from the USA(i.e. Mexico wants easy imagration for Mexicans, Turkey wants 20 billion dollars...etc) or they are scared of supporting the war b/c they have a huge muslim population.

so for you "the world is against us". Every one is a money *****. it's always about money. no other reason.

Any way the most importan countries (Spain, GB, Portugal, and Russia too(but they won't say publicly) are with us. thats all that matter!!!

 

[TexP5]

nmaino...

1) Re-read my comment about my original "lol"...I said it was a chuckle to myself. I think Mr. Bush is acting pretty dictatorial these days. And arguing that their dictator is bad while ours is good is indeed funny to me. I have no more power to stop Mr. Bush than anyone in Iraq has to stop Saddam. I already cast my vote against him several times as a gubernatorial and presidential candidate.

2) I never mentioned party unless you believe liberal and conservative are parties? are we in England?

3) If Iraq has these alleged weapons of mass destruction, and now, unlike Desert Storm we are seriosuly invading their homeland. What leads you to believe there will NOT be thousands of dead? The justification for war is that Saddam's a mad man and will stop at nothing. If we don't expect him to use these weapons against an all out assault, when will he use them?

4) The modern welfare state barely exists and the reason for that is that military spending and corporate welfare in the forms of tax breaks and business loans have concumed the majority of the budget dollars under the Republican regimes of the past 30 years. Don't take my word for it, go to a library and get a copy of any budget from the past thrity years. You'll see the percentage spent on "welfare" issues is ridiculously small.

5) Again...no one has yet addressed my main concern which is Who or what gives us the right to do this against world opinion and against a domestic opinion that is at least large enough to be considered a statistically significant percentage of the American population. America does NOT act unilaterally, and should not start now. That's my biggest point and it's also the most potentially dangerous precedent that we are setting.

Saided...I don't intend this as a flame, but I don't even know what you're point is?

 

[saided18]

well my point is that the "world" is not against us b/c they believe Saddam has no Weapons. they are against the War b/c of money issues. that it. every one agrees he i crazy F*ck. Also people are agint the USA b/c... they just hates the USA and will go against anything we do. thats it.


and you just shot tour self down. You summed up your all position on the War Iraq by saying you hate Bush and you voted against him everyting. You just hate the man. that it. and it seems that every one that is "against him" are the people that hate him. If he came out and said that the sky i blue you would attack him and say he is wrong.

Why is every one so aginst Bush. b/c he do give a F*ck. He is going to do what he feels is right and every one else can kiss his ass!!! and if you don't like it vote him out the next election. That is his stance and people don't like that.

People like the Bill Clinton types that lie to your face. Where ws all this protesting when old Billy boy bombed the s*** out of Iraq when oh yeah the weapons inspector were kicked of Iraq and Saddam stuck his middle finger up at the World and told every one to kiss his ass b/c he is not going to abide by the Gluf war UN resalution for his complete and total surrender ad disarement?????

it is the same situation that is going on now. but just b/c it's Bush ever one is going crazy. that it end of story!

People just don't liek the guy! thats it. plain and simple!!!!

 

[saided18]

One last thing. Every one hated the USA in the 70's because we supported the Shah or Iran. Now we want to take out a person just as evil as the Shah and now everyone hates us for it.


It is a no win situation. you are damned if you do and damn if you don't