A question of War

[nmaino]

Hello,

I now that this might be a little touchy, but I have to blow off some steam and I thought that this would be a good place to do it.

The media here in the USA is completely misusing the word "war." This makes me very mad becasue people are getting so fired up about this pending "war" with Iraq that they are not thinking about what a war (a true, consitutionally legal war) is.

The "war" in Iraq is not going to be a war at all, it is going to be a police action just like Desert Storm, and Vietnam. For a war to take place, the President of the United States must go to Congress and ask for a decleration of war. Bush has not done this, nor will he. Congress has given the president the power to use troops in a peace-keeping exercise (or a police exercise, however you want to look at it), but not to go to war. The United States of America has not been in a war since the Second World War.

If the United States of America is going to go and fight Iraq (for what ever reason), President Bush should go to the House and ask for a proper decleration of war on Iraq. I think that this "beating around the bush" tactic that every president since FDR has used to get American boys involved in world affairs has gone on long enough. If we are going to go and kill people, then we, as a legal and just society need to properly declare war on whomever we plan to attack.

What do you guys think?

 

[Logan]

Know what I think?
The best way to stop Saddam is to stop buying his oil.
When his country stops making all the money they make on oil, they will take care of themselves.
Sure, he's a dicatator, but someone will step up from inside the border and things will change.
No "war", no international spectacle.

 

[tonkabui]

saddam isn't making money on his oil. he is under UN sanctions to only trade his oil for food. so in order to live up to his lavish lifestyles, he has had to make biological weapons and other WMD. these, my friends, have been sold long ago to people like osama bin laden. the sanctions have been in place since 1991. you think he's JUST NOW getting his hands on WMD that "might" get into the terrorists' hands? they already have them. there are probably terrorist cells within the US as well as around the world that already has these weapons. so why are we wasting, according to war analysts, AT LEAST 1 TRILLION dollars on this reactive war? makes no sense to me.

the fact that saddam has been in power since the 80's shows his ruthlessness. people don't come back after saying something bad about him. the kurds and shiite populations can be testament to this. if you don't participate in the general elections (which basically has only his name on it) bad things will happen to your family. they burn your house down, they torture and **** the women, they take your car... fun stuff like that. saddam's got his people in a vice. sure, it's messed up, but it's not our place to go in and replace him. it's just how things are done there. just like freedoms we have here are just how things are here. we can't expect everyone in the world to be just like us. that's unfair and ignorant.

 

[hawkwind101]

Do you really think this war is about Saddam? It's about oil! Saddam is just the excuse for this war. Sure he is ruthless and shouldn't be in power but this war is not about him. The US are targeting the wrong country. North Korea has nuclear weapons and they should be the ones the US should be targeting. We all know North Korea builds weapons and sells to other countries, in fact they will sell to anyone. IMO they are the ones to be worried about. They also sell weapons to Iraq.

 

[Logan]

I've thought for a LONG time that this is about oil.
Really, if you think about it, what does Bush really care about?
He cares about making the US richer, and taking care of the american people.
American's need oil (so do us Canadians), Iraq has LOTS of oil, so why wouldn't he want to put someone in place to make sure the states can have lots and lots of oil?

 

[nmaino]

I like the converstation going on here, but you guys are off the point a bit. I was a trying to make a statement that the word "war" has not be properly used by the media.

True, Saddam is a very bad man and he needs to be dealt with. I cannot help but shake my head when you say "that is just the way things are done there," tonkabui. That is the completely wrong attitude to have. Things are the way they are in this country becasue thousands of people have died for your and my ways of life, our freedom and our right to protest our government.

It is not unfair to give people a chance in this world to make something of their lives and to live without fear of the government (what they will do to you or your family). I think that your comment was ignorate.

 

[Logan]

Well, I have to agree with what he said about not expecting people to be like us.
We can't.
Everyone is different, each country has it's own culture (some more than one) and to expect every country to conform to the "North American" way is ignorant.
The following comment will likely anger some people, so I will appologize now.
"Some" American's need to expand their minds. They are very self centred and conceited, and expect everyone to fall in line.
I don't agree with Saddam, and what he does etc.
But I have to admire his courage to stand up in front of Mr. America.
I like how he called on Bush to have a public debate. I think they should have a debate!

 

[hawkwind101]

nmaino, the President would never go to Congress to declare a declaration of war. In order to do that they would need some very convincing evidence that they need to go to war. The fact is they don't have it. Why do you think the UN is so hesitant in atacking Iraq? Bush is using 9/11 as an excuse for this "war". As long as he can convince the people of the world that Iraq is in cahoots with terrorists and they are terrorsits themselves then it will validate this "war".

As for Tonkabui's comments, I sorta agree with him. We cannot go interferring in other countries just because we don't like the way their government is run or whether theres an asshole leading their country. If we do were does it stop. As in WWI and WWII we did not fight for other countries we fought for ourselves. If the people of Iraq have a problem with their government it should be up to them to do something about it. It would be messy and alot of people dying but it can be done. And there is nothing wrong with them asking other countries for help BUT it has to start with them. Remember your civil war.

 

[Logan]

Did anyone see the movie "Bowling for Columbine"?
Very good movie. Documentary really.
It asked some very good questions about "The American Way".
It basically boiled down to the fact that America is fostering a culture of Fear. The president is trying to scare people into acting.

 

[big_ben]

I completely disagree. I was in the military and trust me, when the government doesn't say it's a war it pisses us off. ANY offensive action the US takes with it's military is a war, I don't give a s*** what the government says.

Here is a question for you. What would you consider Vietnam to be? Guess what, it wasn't declared a war. There hasn't been a true war since the Korean war.

 

[nmaino]

Well, big_ben, you are wrong. The last time that the United States went to war was in 1941 when FDR declared war on Japan. Remeber, you can have a conflict (Vietnam, Desert Storm and the Korean War) without having a formal decleration of war. All three of these conflicts were police actions.

Hawkwind101, President Bush doesn't need to go infront of congress to ask for a decleration of war, they have already given him the power to take military action (but not a war) against Iraq if he sees fit.

This is going to happen again. You do not move over 75,000 troops half way around the world for them to do nothing. There is going to be a conflict in Iraq. I'm questioning how we (as the American people) go about this, i.e., what do we/should we expect from OUR government and its officials as Americans?

Hawkwind101, I'm also not sure what you mean by the comment "remeber your civil war." Please elaberate more on this question so that we can talk about creating action that leads to conflict.

This is great.

 

[GerardPRO5]

This 'war' argument is an issue about semantics.

trying to argue the meaning of a word is pointless. who cares how the media is declaring the 'conflict' against Iraq?

if we shouldn't use the word 'war', then why do we have the following:

-a war on drugs
-a war on gang violence
-etc.

do you think Saddam Hussein publicly declared war on the Kurds and displaced people in Northern Iraq before killing millions of them?

Also, this whole conflict is NOT about OIL. it is not about the United States' hunger for OIL. it is not about Bush. it is not about Bush' desire to follow in his father's footsteps.

This is about Saddam Hussein not following UN Security Council resolutions and not disarming.

I suggest, for everyone's own edification, that all of you stop basing your decisions on what CNN or the mass media states. The media is convoluted, but it's also not dumb. the US Department of Defense only releases a fraction of information that it feels that the media should be reporting...so much more is going on behind the scenes that CNN does not have access to, so CNN makes stipulations and judgement calls.

I'm glad you have an opinion about this, but an ignorant opinion is not as good as an educated opinion.

...and in terms of the argument against US Foreign Policy, true, it sucks...that's why a lot of the world hates Americans...because it's either the american way, or the american way.

BUT, it is a superpower's responsibility to keep the peace and enforce the peace.


I'll put my can opener away now...I've opened way too many cans of beans.

 

[brokemp3]

you can call it what you want people are still going to die . who cares what you call it. if this is what you have to worry about then i feel sorry for you. the conflict with iraq is not abou oil. it is about them having weapons that they are not allowed to have but are still making them. we are not trying to make people coform we just try to give them the opertunity to chose for themselfs, instead of being ruled by one person. hawkwind101 you are a jackass do you really believe that people that can barely feed themselfs can fight a dictator like that. i suggest that you dont run your mouth about things you dont know. it makes you look stupid. and who says we dont worry about korea. do you think before you talk? and a little bit of advice dont believe everything you see on the news.its easy to talk and judge other people but unless you have done something instead of sitting around on your fatass judging us who are willing to sacrafice our lives for other people then i suggest you shut the **** up. i think we should pull our finacial aid to all you bastards who dont appreciate what we do. then lets see how self centered and conceited we are.

 

[nmaino]

GerardPRO5, agruing the meaning of a word is not pointless. Attornys, judges, and even a president have agrued/will continue to argue the meaning of words and there implications(what do you think the Supreme Court bases ALL of its decisions on?). Also, it is almost impossible to generate an opinion without watching, reading or listening to the media. How else to you expect people to get the information that they need to create their opinions? Words are powerful and create action and the media knows this (and thus they use it to their advantage).

Also, the discusion going on here would be a lot more clear if you could write the person's name who you are refering to (i.e., nmaino: said this) in your replies.

Most people hate Americans becasue most of the population in the world is not educated in any way. Education is power (this has been the rule of thumb for thousands of years, look at the Catholic Church), to keep a people under you, to breed hate for other nations you simply keep your population poor and uneducated (a la Saddam Hussein and his control over Iraq).

Thats keep this rolling!

 

[JMS'sMSP]

The conflict with iraq is not about oil. it is about them having weapons that they are not allowed to have but are still making them. we are not trying to make people coform we just try to give them the opertunity to chose for themselfs, instead of being ruled by one person.hawkwind101 you are a jackass do you really believe that people that can barely feed themselfs can fight a dictator like that. i suggest that you dont run your mouth about things you dont know. it makes you look stupid. and who says we dont worry about korea. do you think before you talk? and a little bit of advice dont believe everything you see on the news.its easy to talk and judge other people but unless you have done something instead of sitting around on your fatass judging us who are willing to sacrafice our lives for other people then i suggest you shut the **** up. i think we should pull our finacial aid to all you bastards who dont appreciate what we do. then lets see how self centered and conceited we are.

I couldnt have said it better myself...

 

[brennan]

About the whole thing about americans being conceited, Canada also has conceited people. there is going to be self centered people in both countries. So saying that you should pull the financial aid is a really stupid thing to say IMO. Saying stuff like that proves that YOU Brokemp3 is a self centered and concieted american. I am not trying to start a fight but don't go saying things like that. I fully appreciate what the U.S. has done for canada And I fully honor the soldiers that have died from both countries. So don't say anything like that is all I am saying

 

[scootzpr5]

brokemp3: you said everything I was going to say! you are so right. Are you in the military? I am! I think some of you people have know idea whats going on...you just believe whats on t.v. ( thats where I go for the truth! hah) It's so much easier for people to piss and moan about whats going on, then actually stand up and contribute to the cause! In MY OPINION!

 

[brokemp3]

i have been in the navy for 5 years and been in three conflicts durring that time all for other people. brennan you missed the point with that one. you guys want to b**** and complain well then i say **** you and everyone like you

 

[SpeedFreak]

I agree that our government intentionally hides the majority of it's actions from it's people. The American people as a whole are so ignorant of what our country does it's pathetic. I love my country, but I HATE my government. It is not something that we can change by rallying or marching or protesting. You want to see something scary, compare the cold war Soviet government to our "democratic" government now. You guy's in the military, esp. the ones in Intel., probably know what I'm talking about. Before you write me off as a conspiracy theory nut, I was in satellite communications in the Army, I got to see some of the stuff none of you ever will and because of some of what I saw, I don't want to have and raise kids in this country now. My wife and I are considering moving because we want to start a family.

 

[JMS'sMSP]

i have been in the navy for 5 years and been in three conflicts durring that time all for other people. brennan you missed the point with that one. you guys want to b**** and complain well then i say **** you and everyone like you

I agree I have been in the Air Force for 5 years and I totally agree with everything you have said!!!

Have you heard about that college basketball player that turns her back to the flag at all her games now?? She is another dumbass and if she cant respect the flag then she can get the hell out!!!