2013 CX-5 Transmission Failure at 67,000 km

[ccyap]

Hi All,

Greetings from Malaysia, i have an unsettling question and hope if anyone can explain why the skyactiv gearbox can fail at low mileage with careful use and prompt maintenance. Mazda workshop here keeps blaming driving habit and vehicle aging, which i dont agree.

Here goes the story, My dad owns a 2013 CX5 for mainly short trips and once in a blue moon long distance drive. Hence only clocking 73000km to date. Fully maintained at Mazda dealer since new. At year 5, about 30k kms, the dealership changed the ATF.

Mid of Nov 23, the car suddenly loses power while driving and went into limp mode and gear indicator showed "--". Stopped by the roadside, restarted and gear would not shift beyond 2nd or 3rd. After leaving it at the parking lot, everything went back to normal and Mazda technicians was able to drive it back to the workshop. They plugged in the diagnostics, there was no fault code.

The techs then dropped the ATF pan, and found some metal debris and concluded that the GB somehow overheated (photos of the pan, 2 yr old ATF and one of the "blueish hue planery gear" below).

Was Quoted a hefty sum of RM11k (US$2.3k) including replacement of torque converter. Decided to rebuilt the torque converter at 3rd party gearbox specialist (costs only RM900 compared to RM7000 for new!) and Mazda proceeded to replace a few parts as per attached picture below

It took 3 months for parts to arrive and fix, and has been running fine so far (but the infamous whining noise still comes and goes). We had fully paid up the bill to get the car out of the workshop but i am still in touch with Mazda Malaysia and Japan demanding for some form of goodwill but No favourable news yet so far as they keep insisting it was not a manufacturing defect

If the gearbox failed/overheated due to severe usage or abuse, i have no doubts, but low mileage, ATF fluid changed, and sedately driven but the Gearbox still fails? It is quite unsettling

Anyone here can shed some light or share your thoughts about this? Kinda lose faith in our Mazda. What a fragile Tranny it has

 

[Jmaz]

Hi All,

Greetings from Malaysia, i have an unsettling question and hope if anyone can explain why the skyactiv gearbox can fail at low mileage with careful use and prompt maintenance. Mazda workshop here keeps blaming driving habit and vehicle aging, which i dont agree.

Here goes the story, My dad owns a 2013 CX5 for mainly short trips and once in a blue moon long distance drive. Hence only clocking 73000km to date. Fully maintained at Mazda dealer since new. At year 7, about 50k kms, the dealership changed the ATF.

Mid of Nov 23, the car suddenly loses power while driving and went into limp mode and gear indicator showed "--". Stopped by the roadside, restarted and gear would not shift beyond 2nd or 3rd. After leaving it at the parking lot, everything went back to normal and Mazda technicians was able to drive it back to the workshop. They plugged in the diagnostics, there was no fault code.

The techs then dropped the ATF pan, and found some metal debris and concluded that the GB somehow overheated (photos of the pan, 2 yr old ATF and one of the "blueish hue planery gear" below)
View attachment 328728
View attachment 328729
View attachment 328730
Was Quoted a hefty sum of RM11k (US$2.3k) including replacement of torque converter. Decided to rebuilt the torque converter at 3rd party gearbox specialist (costs only RM900 compared to RM7000 for new!) and Mazda proceeded to replace a few parts as per attached picture below
View attachment 328731
View attachment 328733
View attachment 328734
It took 3 months for parts to arrive and fix, and has been running fine so far (but the infamous whining noise still comes and goes). We had fully paid up the bill to get the car out of the workshop but i am still in touch with Mazda Malaysia and Japan demanding for some form of goodwill but No favourable news yet so far as they keep insisting it was not a manufacturing defect

If the gearbox failed/overheated due to severe usage or abuse, i have no doubts, but low mileage, ATF fluid changed, and sedately driven but the Gearbox still fails? It is quite unsettling

Anyone here can shed some light or share your thoughts about this? Kinda lose faith in our Mazda. What a fragile Tranny it has

I wish I could offer a cause for the failure, but the blue heat marks on that that "planetary gear" look due to induction hardening of the teeth when manufactured. The teeth on that do not mesh with other gears as indicated by the tooth spacing and lack of polished surfaces from meshing with other gears. Do you know why was the torque converter changed, it's the most expensive item. Maybe other forum members here could offer their thoughts on this.

 

[sinistriel@]

What is being called the "planetary gear" is the low clutch input hub. They are made of steel and yours does show signs of being overheated. Do you have any pictures of the old clutches? It will be the thinner lighter tan colored set in the picture you have circled and they spline over that hub and sit in the input drum. They are used in 1st-4th gear. Having that set slip indicates a pressure issue in the valvebody or an issue with the apply piston. The only way to change that piston is a new input drum because it's laser welded into the drum. Looking at the parts list they did not do anything with valvebody and reused the drum. The transmissions themselves are quite well built and designed compared to many other OEMs. Like anything mechanical they can and do fail.

 

[Jmaz]

What is being called the "planetary gear" is the low clutch input hub. They are made of steel and yours does show signs of being overheated. Do you have any pictures of the old clutches? It will be the thinner lighter tan colored set in the picture you have circled and they spline over that hub and sit in the input drum. They are used in 1st-4th gear. Having that set slip indicates a pressure issue in the valvebody or an issue with the apply piston. The only way to change that piston is a new input drum because it's laser welded into the drum. Looking at the parts list they did not do anything with valvebody and reused the drum. The transmissions themselves are quite well built and designed compared to many other OEMs. Like anything mechanical they can and do fail.

Thanks for your for analysis, I was hoping you would jump in here and shed some light on things. Shows how much I (don't) know about these transmissions. But just to satisfy my curiosity, would there be a reason as standard procedure to change the torque converter when this type of failure occurs?
While you're on this thread, I have another question. Months back on another thread you mentioned that you personally change your transmission fluid about every 30k miles. This past week I did (1) D&F. Drained out 3-3/4 qts and was surprised how dark it was (rather black, but not India ink black) considering how I did 2x D&F at 4 years and 27k miles ago. Does this transmission beat up the fluid that bad or is the dark color misleading. Transmission has been great. Welcome your comments.

 

[sinistriel@]

Thanks for your for analysis, I was hoping you would jump in here and shed some light on things. Shows how much I (don't) know about these transmissions. But just to satisfy my curiosity, would there be a reason as standard procedure to change the torque converter when this type of failure occurs?
While you're on this thread, I have another question. Months back on another thread you mentioned that you personally change your transmission fluid about every 30k miles. This past week I did (1) D&F. Drained out 3-3/4 qts and was surprised how dark it was (rather black, but not India ink black) considering how I did 2x D&F at 4 years and 27k miles ago. Does this transmission beat up the fluid that bad or is the dark color misleading. Transmission has been great. Welcome your comments.

Anytime there is a transmission failure the converter at a minimum should be opened, cleaned and reassembled. There is no other way to clean them out adequately. Putting in a remanufactired one is a good idea and the only way we do it when performing an overhaul.

FZ fluid can get dark quickly but is not necessarily a reflection of fluid condition but a consequence of what some of the clutch material is made of(dark frictions will turn fluid dark when they shed) and the fluid starting out as a blue color.

looking at fluid in a container can be deceiving, did you have a surface to pour it out on and see what it looked like thinned out?

 

[Jmaz]

I drained the FZ into a pitcher and when emptying it into a suitable disposal container didn't notice any sediment in the bottom. Everything looked clean. I remember the fluid clinging to the walls of the pitcher had a purplish tint and was rather transparent.
I didn't spread it out over a surface for inspection at that time but just now, after your reply, checked the pitcher (I wiped it out after dumping) and found just enough to basically cover my fingertip. Here's a pic (not so great) of it spread out on clear plexiglas with the white backing left on for background illumination. No particles noted, just a purple tint. Included a shot of the pitcher showing how dark it looks. I'm not worried about the fluid since it isn't burnt but wanted your perspective on it since it was so dark with the amount of miles on it. Most of my driving is around town (not stop and go city) with many stoplights and signs and usually 10 miles or less so the transmission does a lot of shifts. Thanks.

 

[sinistriel@]

That looks pretty normal when it's in a volume like that. This is a pic of how FZ ages to give you an example of what you're seeing.

 

[ccyap]

What is being called the "planetary gear" is the low clutch input hub. They are made of steel and yours does show signs of being overheated. Do you have any pictures of the old clutches? It will be the thinner lighter tan colored set in the picture you have circled and they spline over that hub and sit in the input drum. They are used in 1st-4th gear. Having that set slip indicates a pressure issue in the valvebody or an issue with the apply piston. The only way to change that piston is a new input drum because it's laser welded into the drum. Looking at the parts list they did not do anything with valvebody and reused the drum. The transmissions themselves are quite well built and designed compared to many other OEMs. Like anything mechanical they can and do fail.

unfortunately i dont have the pictures of the old clutches and valve body. The valve body looks ok with no hints visually seen damage and they didnt replace it (the car had no prior shift pattern issues and unusual sounds except for the On-off whinning). told them only to replace the real necessary bits as the initial est. repair costs could buy a used econobox car already!

below is another photo of the torque converter taken out and can see poured out colours of the ATF.

The tranny specialist who did the T Converter refurb said there were damaged parts inside but im not sure (sent me photos below, but i am not sure if it looks like mazda's TC or not, as they can send me other TC photos too)

I studied Engineering (not mechanical tho ) and am trained to think that nothing in design fails without a cause, there must be some sort of stress that causes a type or more failure modes and there are design safety factors material fatigue to consider too.

Anyway Thanks @sinistriel@ for invaluable inputs.

 

[Jmaz]

That looks pretty normal when it's in a volume like that. This is a pic of how FZ ages to give you an example of what you're seeing.

Great. Thanks for the reply and the color chart.

 

[sinistriel@]

unfortunately i dont have the pictures of the old clutches and valve body. The valve body looks ok with no hints visually seen damage and they didnt replace it (the car had no prior shift pattern issues and unusual sounds except for the On-off whinning). told them only to replace the real necessary bits as the initial est. repair costs could buy a used econobox car already!

below is another photo of the torque converter taken out and can see poured out colours of the ATF.

View attachment 328770
The tranny specialist who did the T Converter refurb said there were damaged parts inside but im not sure (sent me photos below, but i am not sure if it looks like mazda's TC or not, as they can send me other TC photos too)
View attachment 328771
I studied Engineering (not mechanical tho ) and am trained to think that nothing in design fails without a cause, there must be some sort of stress that causes a type or more failure modes and there are design safety factors material fatigue to consider too.

Anyway Thanks @sinistriel@ for invaluable inputs.

You have to have the valve body open to look for the wear that these units get, the valves inside begin wearing the anodization off and then wear the bores in the body and starts a pressure issue. Assuming its the whining sound the Skys can get by the center bearing rotating in the case the only way to repair that is to either replace the center case or bore the case and replace with different bearing(this requires special tooling to do).

That fluid being a purple color is very odd, not sure if its really that color of a trick of the light. The converter cut open is definitely a Skyactiv converter, its far too blurry to make any judgements on damage, but it does appear they did open it.

 

[ccyap]

You have to have the valve body open to look for the wear that these units get, the valves inside begin wearing the anodization off and then wear the bores in the body and starts a pressure issue. Assuming its the whining sound the Skys can get by the center bearing rotating in the case the only way to repair that is to either replace the center case or bore the case and replace with different bearing(this requires special tooling to do).

That fluid being a purple color is very odd, not sure if its really that color of a trick of the light. The converter cut open is definitely a Skyactiv converter, its far too blurry to make any judgements on damage, but it does appear they did open it.

Im not entirely sure if the technicians did a total strip up of every component (solenoids etc.) on the valve body, but i only saw the stripping enough to expose its channel valves.... But they did mention that if the issue happens again, the whole valve body needs to be replaced

Based on my understanding of the center bearing issue, will it cause pressure problems to the valve body?

And yes it was purple. I thought FZ fluid was purple until today where you mentioned is blue.

Do happen to know what kind of driving habits can contribute to such early failure of gearbox?

Literary none of the cars we've ever owned in our family had gearbox failure before. i even once owned a 1984 Honda Accord with Hondamatic 4AT, still on its original gearbox, a generous 400000 over kms, still engages instantly and smooth shifting. Strictly running on Dexron II

 

[Lazy2.5]

That is 100% a manufacturing defect. These transmission are extremely, durable, with or without abuse can last 600,000KM with regular maintenance. You should post a thread with a list of high mileage users from this forum specifying the maintenance/driving habits on their high mileage skyactiv autos and show that to Mazda.

 

[sinistriel@]

Im not entirely sure if the technicians did a total strip up of every component (solenoids etc.) on the valve body, but i only saw the stripping enough to expose its channel valves.... But they did mention that if the issue happens again, the whole valve body needs to be replaced

Based on my understanding of the center bearing issue, will it cause pressure problems to the valve body?

And yes it was purple. I thought FZ fluid was purple until today where you mentioned is blue.

Do happen to know what kind of driving habits can contribute to such early failure of gearbox?

Literary none of the cars we've ever owned in our family had gearbox failure before. i even once owned a 1984 Honda Accord with Hondamatic 4AT, still on its original gearbox, a generous 400000 over kms, still engages instantly and smooth shifting. Strictly running on Dexron II

The center bearing concern wont make a pressure issue on its own but will eventually cause a transmission failure due to the large amounts of metal it begins to make as well as not holding and centering the geartrain, assuming that is the whining sound you are hearing.

There are people that are quite hard on the units and they do fine and live a long service life, yours likely just has a defect it was born with. Having a Honda auto with over 400k on its own would be the other end of statistical, we see a ton of Honda units failing around 160k.

 

[ccyap]

That is 100% a manufacturing defect. These transmission are extremely, durable, with or without abuse can last 600,000KM with regular maintenance. You should post a thread with a list of high mileage users from this forum specifying the maintenance/driving habits on their high mileage skyactiv autos and show that to Mazda.

I agree with you as even the dealership said our cx5 is the 2nd KE series encountering gb issues (1st being using the paddleshifters the wrong way) and local tranny specialist said its the first case of cx5 they've dealt with.

But how to make Mazda listen? They would have thought (like all manufacturers) cases are so rare its probably another user problem!

 

[Jmaz]

Just taking a swag here , however corny, but blue and red make purple. Wonder if it was serviced with red ATF (Dexron/ Mercon/other ) at some point.

 

[ccyap]

The center bearing concern wont make a pressure issue on its own but will eventually cause a transmission failure due to the large amounts of metal it begins to make as well as not holding and centering the geartrain, assuming that is the whining sound you are hearing.

There are people that are quite hard on the units and they do fine and live a long service life, yours likely just has a defect it was born with. Having a Honda auto with over 400k on its own would be the other end of statistical, we see a ton of Honda units failing around 160k.

i'll take note of the whinning, but i noticed that the whine only starts when the car has ran a while during hot days.. and only then i can bring to the workshop to get it diagnosed.

Sad that the defect came about when our car is already 10 years of age., mazda doesnt seem to give a damn.. but i'll keep trying.

photo above was my 30 yr old automatic honda i bought 2014. sold it because someone offered me a price nearly 50% higher than my purchase price. i still see it running on the roads today. And i thought honda auto's was super durable(not so apparantly)

really bad experience with our first Mazda

 

[ccyap]

Just taking a swag here , however corny, but blue and red make purple. Wonder if it was serviced with red ATF (Dexron/ Mercon/other ) at some point.

The car was serviced at the Mazda dealership since new. Red ATF mixed with blue or what not, the gearbox is already fried up.. and pretty unlikely a mazda dealership screwed things up? (or do they? ) anyway i will take a second look that service receipt tomorrow since you highlighted it

or the liquid on the TC might not be ATF, coolant perhaps?

 

[yrwei52]

The car was serviced at the Mazda dealership since new. Red ATF mixed with blue or what not, the gearbox is already fried up.. and pretty unlikely a mazda dealership screwed things up? (or do they? ) anyway i will take a second look that service receipt tomorrow since you highlighted it

or the liquid on the TC might not be ATF, coolant perhaps?

Yes if an automatic transmission failed at 67,000 km / 41,632 miles it’s too early. Like in the US, Mazda in Malaysia won’t do anything for a 10 year old transmission. $2.3K USD is much cheaper than in the US for an automatic transmission rebuild.

Honestly any older Honda 4 / 5-speed automatic transmissions like the one in your 1984 Honda Accord is more reliable than most modern automatics. The 4AT in my 1998 Honda CR-V has 192K miles so far.

Don’t believe the coolant gets in your transmission as the ATF cooler is attached outside of the SkyActiv-Drive transmission and it rarely has internal leaks. Like @jmaz said, is it possible the Mazda shop used wrong red ATF for change which caused transmission failure? Or it’s simply because the transmission is brand new at the time, the failure rate is higher?

As for whining noise it could be the front input bearing is failing. There’s a TSB for the problem and Mazda had to modified the front casing to prevent the problem happening in later model years.

 

[yrwei52]

OP, do you happen to have a 2.2L SkyActiv-D diesel?

And here’s the TSB for whining noise for SkyActiv-Drive automatic transaxle and it says the noise is caused by a damaged bearing in the transaxle due to improper configuration of the transaxle case. A modification has been implemented on automatic transaxles with certain serial numbers and higher.

TSB No.: 05-002/19 Whining Noise from Automatic Transaxle

 

[ccyap]

Just taking a swag here , however corny, but blue and red make purple. Wonder if it was serviced with red ATF (Dexron/ Mercon/other ) at some point.

they did change the right FZ fluid, but i got the date wrong, its year 2018 (car was 5 years old) and mileage only 30k kms