200whp. NA. What does it take?
- Thread starter Gen1GT
- Start date
Ya, you can't just go in and 'order' an NA buildup. Unless it's from a company that specializes in a particular engine(Like Jackson Racing and the D16). But to ask a shop to build your car NA, even THEY'll have to do research. Even my shop doesn't know as much as I do in where to get parts. And what works on one car, doesn't always work on other cars. Like how the BP(and the FS as well I've heard) respone more with more intake duration, than exhaust. This is not the kind of thing any ol shop will know. Nor would they know that the RX7 Airflow Meter is a good mod for my car. Nor would they know they could use Miata 10:1 pistons in my car. etc.
Shane, you're mostly right. If you only go so far with your build-up that is. With NA, you want long duration cams, high compression pistons, relatively thin diameter exhaust etc. With turbo, you want shorter duration, high lift cams, lower compression pistons and larger exhaust. Your NA intake is useless, as is your header. But headwork, custom intake manifold, ported TB...all good for either....
Shane, you're mostly right. If you only go so far with your build-up that is. With NA, you want long duration cams, high compression pistons, relatively thin diameter exhaust etc. With turbo, you want shorter duration, high lift cams, lower compression pistons and larger exhaust. Your NA intake is useless, as is your header. But headwork, custom intake manifold, ported TB...all good for either....
woo hoo.. i was partly right about something.... 
... now i just need a car that i can build up in performance... i have basically ran out of things i can do with my car,, got the Car Video, Car Audio and Bass is top of the line... Body kit , rims.. lookin nice.. no more air force one wing... i want to go performance, but i have an auto..
i think what i am gonna do is find another protege with the 1.8 and transfer parts.., if i cant then ill find a 2.0 and change the front end to the one that is currently on my car, so i can keep the body kit.. .. then performance.... woo hoo..
... now i just need a car that i can build up in performance... i have basically ran out of things i can do with my car,, got the Car Video, Car Audio and Bass is top of the line... Body kit , rims.. lookin nice.. no more air force one wing... i want to go performance, but i have an auto.. i think what i am gonna do is find another protege with the 1.8 and transfer parts.., if i cant then ill find a 2.0 and change the front end to the one that is currently on my car, so i can keep the body kit.. .. then performance.... woo hoo..
p5sundevil
Member
- :
- 03.5 MidnightBlue p5
sounds like a couple good potential plans, you should plan out what you would do if you went with each option from start to finish, then once you have all the complete plans in place compare them to what you want to do with your car and your off. sorta anyway.
for you the easiest thing would be to do a tranny swap ifyou wanna do some decent power...this brings up an intersting point, will a tranny hold up to 140whp NA longer and better than 140whp FI? I would tend to think because of all the on/off boost changes it would be more tramatic tot he tranny over tiem with boost....anyone have any ideas on this.
for you the easiest thing would be to do a tranny swap ifyou wanna do some decent power...this brings up an intersting point, will a tranny hold up to 140whp NA longer and better than 140whp FI? I would tend to think because of all the on/off boost changes it would be more tramatic tot he tranny over tiem with boost....anyone have any ideas on this.
1ofdfew323
Member
- :
- '03 P5 & '07 MS3
Ok i saw one of u guys posted that i can use a 2nd gen fuel injectors and fuel pum for my 1st gen 323 w/ bp motor. Is this 2nd gen turbo charge or just the n/a? I plan on shooting Nitrous and this would really help. THX.
I like to go all motor but im short in cash and i dont like my car to idle like s*** on the stop light w/ a polyurethane bushings on my engine mounts. (headache) Plus smog check is a b**** i dont feel like removing the motor and placing the stock bp back on everytime i get my smog check...
I like to go all motor but im short in cash and i dont like my car to idle like s*** on the stop light w/ a polyurethane bushings on my engine mounts. (headache) Plus smog check is a b**** i dont feel like removing the motor and placing the stock bp back on everytime i get my smog check...
Installshield 2
Gothenburg Superiority
Gen1 is right, as well as Sundevil...I would never for a minute trust some general performance shop to do any performance work on my engines...I will get cams made to my specs, and things like that...But I could never just plop an engine off and say, gimme 200whp NA...They will either never get it done, or trial and error for 3 years, and eventually charge you $20,000...further enforcing the notion of NA being so expensive...by far the biggest expense is the research...
Unless the shop works on specific engines...Don't bother...There are no FS only shops, it hasn't even been microscoped much until within the last 3 years...BP guys are a better off, its a much more popular engine...
But honestly a lot of local shop guys are not people to bother with...Like gen1 mentioned, some shops might know the general tricks for engines similar to yours (like a BP responding well to longer duration cams...) But if you ask them why...I bet you won't get the same answer twice...if you go in there and say "My low rod ratio engine needs cams with much longer duration because it has immeasurably fast piston dwell", they might just glare at you...I have met some shop OWNERS that do not know what a rod ratio even refers to, and why it is responsible for so many nay sayers saying that an FS will never make more than 140whp...
Just do the research men...troll these boards non stop for a year straight, and you can bother the greatest with trivial, useless, junk about the addiction that is auto tuning...
Unless the shop works on specific engines...Don't bother...There are no FS only shops, it hasn't even been microscoped much until within the last 3 years...BP guys are a better off, its a much more popular engine...
But honestly a lot of local shop guys are not people to bother with...Like gen1 mentioned, some shops might know the general tricks for engines similar to yours (like a BP responding well to longer duration cams...) But if you ask them why...I bet you won't get the same answer twice...if you go in there and say "My low rod ratio engine needs cams with much longer duration because it has immeasurably fast piston dwell", they might just glare at you...I have met some shop OWNERS that do not know what a rod ratio even refers to, and why it is responsible for so many nay sayers saying that an FS will never make more than 140whp...
Just do the research men...troll these boards non stop for a year straight, and you can bother the greatest with trivial, useless, junk about the addiction that is auto tuning...
addiction is right...it's all I can think about. I lay in bed at night thinking about tuning my cams when I get them, or if my custom header is going to work as well as I hope......(crazy)
Sundevil, an NA tranny will last much longer than a FI tranny. It's torque that's the problem here. Even though you could even be making the same power, the turbo car will have WAY more torque, and changing gears at speed will tend to break things. It's the only problem with the BP. I could run 350whp til the cows come home on a BP, but the G25-MR, although one of the best Mazda trannies, wasn't made to handle 300lb/ft of torque.
Sundevil, an NA tranny will last much longer than a FI tranny. It's torque that's the problem here. Even though you could even be making the same power, the turbo car will have WAY more torque, and changing gears at speed will tend to break things. It's the only problem with the BP. I could run 350whp til the cows come home on a BP, but the G25-MR, although one of the best Mazda trannies, wasn't made to handle 300lb/ft of torque.
20EVOLUTION01
Member
Gen1GT said:
Hey Gen1GT check what I found on EBAY. Don't know if it will help youor not but here it is. Has the cams done and also shaved the head a bit to give it higher compression.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=2479990180&category=33617
Wow, looks like a nice piece. Only thing is, I'm not going to pay that price for it. I'm doing a lot of the work myself on my head, and cams and cam gears are going to run me about $800 American, so it would be pointless to buy it. I'm going to post that on the clubprotege site though.
Mental Addiction
Banned
I have not read every post, so this might have already been covered.
Inorder to make 200whp on a FS-De motor it's going to take compression,intake,exhaust, RPM's and a well combo'd setup.
The FS-DE intake will not support high RPM's.It's long runner design makes it good for low end power and a straw up top.
Now if you had a ported intake and was able to control the VTCS then that would be a different story.Next would be the intake/exhaust cams.Simply put, stock are not big enough.The lift and duration are to small.
Compression, the 9.1 stock is not going to cut it, you will need 10.0-10.8(for pump gas).
Cylinder head(intake runners), the head in all honesty isn't to bad.To make the 200whp you are going to want to look at larger valves, port the intake and exhaust runners(clean them up), heavier springs(for larger cams,ie open/closed seat pressure)tit. retainers and good cams.
Then it comes down to being able to tune the car.The stock ECU will not work.You will need a good standalone.
If it was me, this is what I would do:
Ported stock intake(keep the VTCS so you can have decent lowend)
Ported head with oversized valves,tit retainers,springs,etc
Custom cams
Oliver Billet Rods
CP pistons,10.8(Oliver rods and CP Piston's make for a litle rotating assembly)
standalone
etc.
This is predy much a short version of what IMO would be good.
Inorder to make 200whp on a FS-De motor it's going to take compression,intake,exhaust, RPM's and a well combo'd setup.
The FS-DE intake will not support high RPM's.It's long runner design makes it good for low end power and a straw up top.
Now if you had a ported intake and was able to control the VTCS then that would be a different story.Next would be the intake/exhaust cams.Simply put, stock are not big enough.The lift and duration are to small.
Compression, the 9.1 stock is not going to cut it, you will need 10.0-10.8(for pump gas).
Cylinder head(intake runners), the head in all honesty isn't to bad.To make the 200whp you are going to want to look at larger valves, port the intake and exhaust runners(clean them up), heavier springs(for larger cams,ie open/closed seat pressure)tit. retainers and good cams.
Then it comes down to being able to tune the car.The stock ECU will not work.You will need a good standalone.
If it was me, this is what I would do:
Ported stock intake(keep the VTCS so you can have decent lowend)
Ported head with oversized valves,tit retainers,springs,etc
Custom cams
Oliver Billet Rods
CP pistons,10.8(Oliver rods and CP Piston's make for a litle rotating assembly)
standalone
etc.
This is predy much a short version of what IMO would be good.
p5sundevil
Member
- :
- 03.5 MidnightBlue p5
awesome man, very good info on a progressive buildup. I wish I didnt find out about u guys 2 weeks after I moved from AZ to WA =P
I need to finisdh of my IHE and then decide between the head and intake work or the cams....wish things didnt go bad with perf his stage 2 and 3 cams were looking promising.
I need to finisdh of my IHE and then decide between the head and intake work or the cams....wish things didnt go bad with perf his stage 2 and 3 cams were looking promising.
twilightprotege
Member
- :
- 2001 323 Astina SP20 (P5)
i'm like that too gen1 - thinking "what about if i do this" as i head off to sleep hehehehe. i come up with the strangest things sometimes....think it'll work extremely well then find out through research that some smarter person already has a patent on it.
Installshield 2 said:
This isn't meant to be a stupid question, but what is the reason that the FS won't make 200 bhp? People look at the honda 2.0L making much more hp, and besides the obvious differences (VTEC, head design, cams), they wonder why other engines come with so much more power, stock?
The reason I'm asking you all is because I have an engine performance program (simulator) for the computer. I can't get more than 180 fhp from this motor before going into super-tuned headers, intakes, and combustion chambers. Performance headers and optimized cams get me to 180 fhp, which isn't that bad (considering that the cam lift is <.4 and duration is <250 ).
That's a tough question. Hondas are completely optimized from the factory. The heads are phenominal, literally second to none. They'll all aluminum, allowing for more compression before detonation, have excellent flow characteristics and respond well to modifications. The FS wasn't over developed like some of the Hondas. Mazda, until recently, didn't spend as much money developing their engines. When Mazda wanted power, they just boosted it. It's like trying to turn a naturally gifted, well-built athlete into an NBA player, compared to training an overweight clutz, who's never played sports.iluvmacs said:
A problem with my car, is the ports are already too big. It was designed this way to accept large amounts of boost, but kills velocity for NA applications, and gives you less room to shape ports.
You talking about me ?!?!?!Gen1GT said:
This is funny to those who've seen me. Topher???Anyway,iluvmacs, have you ever tried running numbers to optimize torque rather than hp? My cam blanks are here, and I need to start to figure just what specs to have them ground to. I'm looking for bigger torque #s, from around 2000-5500, with as much area under the curve as possible. Let me know if you're interested in running some #s for me. I may start a new thread.
twilightprotege
Member
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- 2001 323 Astina SP20 (P5)
another problem with our engines is the stroke vs bore size.
Wrench If u want high torque across the powerband and are less concerned about top end u should go high lift, as high as possible w/o new springs. maybe .355"+ and moderate duration, maybe 215@.050"
and also would it be possible to have the cylinders bored to compensate for the longer stroke and have larger rings w/ HC pistons?
and also would it be possible to have the cylinders bored to compensate for the longer stroke and have larger rings w/ HC pistons?
best way to get 200 whp na is to get another car, it would take alot of work to do taht plus when u do , how reliable will this engine be.
if i ever wanted to make a protege fast and had ALOT of money, heres what u do, find a rx7 tt , gut ur protege, make room for the tranny and engine , convert to rwd.. the kill anything that u see on the road.. hehe..
if i ever wanted to make a protege fast and had ALOT of money, heres what u do, find a rx7 tt , gut ur protege, make room for the tranny and engine , convert to rwd.. the kill anything that u see on the road.. hehe..
That's very close to my thinking so far, except, according to twilight, the stock springs will only go to .350. (please correct me if I'm wrong, Andy) And I'm thinking of adding some duration to the exhaust cam to help with scavenging.akhilleus said:
And, as for me, I have no plans for high comp pistons, but I do know how that limits me, and I'm willing to accept that.
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twilightprotege
Member
- :
- 2001 323 Astina SP20 (P5)
iluvmacs - do you have dyno2003?
wrench, i'm not sure what the stock springs can go up do, but i wouldnt push them past 0.350". dont forget when akhilleus says .355", that's cam lift...you have 0.009"-0.012" lash, so that reduces the overall lift (reason i say change the lash to 0.009")
and dont forget, with our engines you will need a larger cam on the exhaust side because the intake side flows more than the exhaust side and you need to even that up
wrench, i'm not sure what the stock springs can go up do, but i wouldnt push them past 0.350". dont forget when akhilleus says .355", that's cam lift...you have 0.009"-0.012" lash, so that reduces the overall lift (reason i say change the lash to 0.009")
and dont forget, with our engines you will need a larger cam on the exhaust side because the intake side flows more than the exhaust side and you need to even that up
