200whp. NA. What does it take?

[Gen1GT]

There are a lot of people who really don't understand the undertaking of 200whp. Instead of me trying to argue the points, here's some links on Miata.net to help you out...

http://forum.miata.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=025117
http://forum.miata.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=013935
http://forum.miata.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=007211

This is the guy who made the Solomiata website:

[font=Verdana, Arial]pompous [/font]
[font=Verdana, Arial]Overdrive
Member # 505

[/font] [font=Verdana, Arial]posteddocument.writeln(timestamp(new Date(2003,3,2,8,49,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); April 02, 2003 08:49 AM [/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial]quote:[/font] [font=Verdana, Arial]Originally posted by btlackey:
I guess the next best would be the 99, although that gives up some compression.

I have no doubt the 1999 is a stronger motor. The head flows better, solid lifters, etc... I guess the question is how much better is it? Also, what are the IRTB worth(hp) wise?

All in all there are several racing units difference in price, but it could very well be worth it. One is a "maximum build" and the other is more price conscience. I'm wondering how much I would be giving up with the second option.

Secondly are there any other NA options I'm overlooking? [/font]​

[font=Verdana, Arial]If it was me I'd start with a 99-00 engine. Add 2001 pistons and an aftermarket intake cam of 256-260 and call it a day. HEY, I did do that

My current recipe is:

[*]99 head and intake manifold. Shaved and ported w/VS-855 valve springs (head studs too)
[*]260 intake cam w/adjustable gears to get more overlap
[*]overbored TB
[*]+.5mm 2001 pistons
[*]knifeedged and balanced crank
[*]FM ECU
[*]header

Add to that a 4.44 rear and .75:1 5th gear and you have a strong and torquey street engine capa ble of 9000 rpm if needed.

Randy

[ 02. April 2003, 08:54: Message edited by: RandyS ] [/font][font=Verdana, Arial]Posts: 4140 | From: Roswell,GA. +.5mm'01 10:1 pistons, '99 head, 94 crank, 1862cc, 154 rwhp/125 ftlb | Registered: May 99 | IP: Logged | [/font]

With all those mods, he's only getting 154hp....

 

[Matthew]

i just dont think N/A is worth it. i used to, but now that im boosted i see how long and how much money it would cost to get me where im at now. say you DID reach 200whp, how much would you have spent to get to there? how much down time (like having your engine tore up while getting P&P etc) would you have? on the turbo and everything involved ive spent about 3100 so far, as a guesstimate including all the new fluids and everything. if you can get to 200whp for less than that, id s*** my pants.

EDIT: and assuming you had the same car as me and DID reach 200whp, id still beat you thats not me bragging, thats just saying where you would stand after all that work, and im not even tuned yet.

 

[mp5jeff]

^^yep, because the car would have to have the rev limiter shifted to around 8k, and you wouldn't make any power untill very top end!, n/a on this motor sucks compared to boost =)

 

[Matthew]

exactly. every mod with the exception of the pulleys and flywheel give you top end power. and they dont even GIVE you any, just free it up.

 

[Gen1GT]

You guys are right. Boost is the way to go if want cheap power. A LITTLE bit more power is much more reliable than forced induction, but 200whp(probably 235flywheel) from a 1.8 or 2.0 that wasn't made by Honda is severely stressful. It can be done, and it can be done to be reliable, but would take $20,000. By reliable, I mean 10,000-15,000km out of the engine before a rebuild.

I need to let you guys know, I'm all about NA power. I just wanted people to know where they stand when it comes to making it.....

I also want to say, you hear about the poor rod ratio that the BP has, but we have forged rods, and no-one has even heard of anyone breaking a rod, or spinning a bearing. http://forum.miata.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=018913#000003

So my car has the advantage being able to turn 8500rpm without problems, even with my poor rod ratio.

So why do we want to make NA power all you turbo guys must be asking? Becuase it's hard, not because it's easy. It's a challenge, and it's very fulfilling. It sounds better, feels better, revs quicker, has better engine braking, and is more fun to drive, even with less power. We do it because no-one else does.

 

[Gen1GT]

^^yep, because the car would have to have the rev limiter shifted to around 8k, and you wouldn't make any power untill very top end!, n/a on this motor sucks compared to boost =)

I'm planning on running to 8500rpm, with a peak around 7500, but still huge gains over stock from 5000rpm up. You have to sacrafice below 3000, but that's what they made gearboxes for.....beside, you can't beat the sound of a nice, fat, lopey 1000rpm idle.....(bowdown)

 

[PR5Matt]

You guys are right. Boost is the way to go if want cheap power. A LITTLE bit more power is much more reliable than forced induction, but 200whp(probably 235flywheel) from a 1.8 or 2.0 that wasn't made by Honda is severely stressful. It can be done, and it can be done to be reliable, but would take $20,000. By reliable, I mean 10,000-15,000km out of the engine before a rebuild.

I need to let you guys know, I'm all about NA power. I just wanted people to know where they stand when it comes to making it.....

I also want to say, you hear about the poor rod ratio that the BP has, but we have forged rods, and no-one has even heard of anyone breaking a rod, or spinning a bearing. http://forum.miata.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=018913#000003

So my car has the advantage being able to turn 8500rpm without problems, even with my poor rod ratio.

So why do we want to make NA power all you turbo guys must be asking? Becuase it's hard, not because it's easy. It's a challenge, and it's very fulfilling. It sounds better, feels better, revs quicker, has better engine braking, and is more fun to drive, even with less power. We do it because no-one else does.

Please! fOCUS guys have done this with the Zetec for less money than boosted (stock shortblock), and the new Ford/Cosworth/Mazda 2.3 should do it easily. The new fOCUS ST has been putting down 130s to the wheels stock and that is supposed to be a 153hp motor (flywheel). The PZEV fOCUS 2.3 (which is an emissions version with 145hp) has been putting out high 150s at the wheels with just exhaust, cold air, cam gears, and a UDP. The aftermarket is just staring to get revved up for cams etc. Mazda 3 guys are going to benifit from alot of this stuff. So to conclude, you can take your torqueless Hondas and run'em off a cliff.

Hell BTW, I outran a highly modified 1.6B Civic Si with my old bolt-on modified fOCUS. Torque rules.

Two Honda kills:http://www.focusfanatics.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=3282

http://www.focusfanatics.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=2846

What real torque will do for ya: http://www.focusfanatics.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=6865

 

[Gen1GT]

Please! fOCUS guys have done this with the Zetec for less money than boosted (stock shortblock), and the new Ford/Cosworth/Mazda 2.3 should do it easily. The new fOCUS ST has been putting down 130s to the wheels stock and that is supposed to be a 153hp motor (flywheel). The PZEV fOCUS 2.3 (which is an emissions version with 145hp) has been putting out high 150s at the wheels with just exhaust, cold air, cam gears, and a UDP. The aftermarket is just staring to get revved up for cams etc. Mazda 3 guys are going to benifit from alot of this stuff. So to conclude, you can take your torqueless Hondas and run'em off a cliff.

Hell BTW, I outran a highly modified 1.6B Civic Si with my old bolt-on modified fOCUS. Torque rules.

Two Honda kills:http://www.focusfanatics.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=3282

http://www.focusfanatics.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=2846

What real torque will do for ya: http://www.focusfanatics.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=6865

When I was talking about the Hondas, I was talking about how they have 100hp/L from the factory. The new 2.3s should EASILY put out 200whp with the right mods. I'm talking about a 1.8 and 2.0 here. Do you realize that you're proud that you outran a 1.6? Think about it....a 1.6.....

 

[Replica]

When I was talking about the Hondas, I was talking about how they have 100hp/L from the factory. The new 2.3s should EASILY put out 200whp with the right mods. I'm talking about a 1.8 and 2.0 here. Do you realize that you're proud that you outran a 1.6? Think about it....a 1.6.....

Displacement is nice, but a B16 is a waaay better motor than a BP. There just isn't anything to debate.

 

[Minus]

depends on how you define better i suppose. im sure our engines could scream if we had the aftermarket support that hondas get. if we had larger companies sitting around playing with a protege for months trying to make it faster then im sure our motors would be lots better. im waiting for greddy or apex'i or someone to get ahold of a p5 and just blow it away

 

[03MSPRO]

the FS engine is not made to rev high

 

[Gen1GT]

As we speak, the 3rd gens have the worst aftermarket support for engines. Because we share the 1.8 of the Miata, we get to borrow all their goodies. The FS is starting to get support, but it's still small. They have many more chassis parts available though.

The new 2.0 and 2.3 will be a different story though, since the aftermarket has already jumped on them.

It's true that the B-Series hondas are much better than the BP. The BP was designed to be boosted, so it's super hard work to make NA power. The most ANY Miata guy is making on the street is 180whp. Still stout, but some race prepped BPs are making 250hp though.

My goal is 170whp, but honestly, if I'm making 154(180crank), I'll be happy.

 

[Replica]

Nice rod bearings make anything rev high.

 

[Jeff@Tri-Point]

I'm planning on running to 8500rpm, with a peak around 7500, but still huge gains over stock from 5000rpm up. You have to sacrafice below 3000, but that's what they made gearboxes for.....beside, you can't beat the sound of a nice, fat, lopey 1000rpm idle.....(bowdown)

Well all i have to say is don't get cunningham rods if u plan on going up to 7500 prm or above. Try calling our old enginer builder... jim at sunbelt. Our cars are pushing what you want but then again its a race motor that gets beat all the time and blow up. We have a new engine builder for us now. You can call comptechusa and ask them for some more info.

 

[Gen1GT]

Nice rod bearings make anything rev high.

Not quiet THAT easy. A well balanced and blueprinted engine helps. But when your rod breaks at the bolt head when you're trying to spin a cast rod at 9000RPMs with a 1.50 rod ratio, bearings do nothing.....

 

[Replica]

Not quiet THAT easy. A well balanced and blueprinted engine helps. But when your rod breaks at the bolt head when you're trying to spin a cast rod at 9000RPMs with a 1.50 rod ratio, bearings do nothing.....

Within reason....chances are, a FS-DE wont be making much power at 9k anyway.

 

[Gen1GT]

Well all i have to say is don't get cunningham rods if u plan on going up to 7500 prm or above. Try calling our old enginer builder... jim at sunbelt. Our cars are pushing what you want but then again its a race motor that gets beat all the time and blow up. We have a new engine builder for us now. You can call comptechusa and ask them for some more info.

Stock BP rods will be fine. As far as anyone's known, no-one has ever broken a rod in a BP, even with 400whp. I'll deburr, polish and shot-peen them, and they should be good for 10,000rpm if I choose. Most guys run 9000rpm every now and again, 8000 being the norm. One guy missed a shift and hit 13,000 and nothing blew....

 

[Gen1GT]

Within reason....chances are, a FS-DE wont be making much power at 9k anyway.

true....

 

[Glowspeedp5]

LOL, I had a 1991 Escort GT with the Mazda BP motor. Myself along with Thomas Potter who has an 1993 escort GT started doing small experiments with N/A on our cars. Well to top if off with just a mild cams, no intake and header I was busting 15.4 in the quarter. I bought pacesetter header and exhaust with a weapon r intake along with miata adjustable cam gears and dropp to 15.00 flat. I decked the head bored the throttle body got even more mild cams running on 110 oct and busted my best time of 13.6 @ 120 mph. All Motor. The funny thing was when I dyno it and it only had 160 WHP I just laughed. I was beating cars with more whp then me....
Also during our build up process many people said that the ecu would have problems that is false because ob1 learn with mods.

Now with the 2002 protege5 it will be easy to get to 200 whp which means 225 hp at the crank. You already have the pistons from mazda of japan. Rods 350 get some custom rods. Titian vaves and springs are coming out soon. Cams stage 2 and 3 coming out. Ecu can go fine to 200 crank horsepower after that need haltech.(mazdaspeed rep and jim @sunbelt) I already know I can beat you gen1 gt. All motor.

 

[SpicyMchaggis]

i sleep with a gt28rs under my pillow..waiting for the turbo fairy to come and leave me 10,000$.