loj68 said:but he is expanding on the meaning of the establishment clause.......you cannot discount this as he is the one who wrote it. If he says that it was meant to create a "wall of separation" then it was written to do just that.
Just because the founding fathers were christians does NOT mean that they created a Judeo-Christian based society by default. Take a look at the Judeo-Christian based societies of the 1700's and you'll see what a quantum leap our founding doctrines are from them. Not to mention our founding fathers created a completely secular constitution without a single reference to god, jesus, or judeo christianity.
For those who think the U.S. was founded on Judeo-Christian values and ideals, all I have to say is show me where it is......because it's not in the constitution.......there are no values or ideals there that can't be found in countless other non-christian societies.
Mad Ryan said:Wow... everybody rejoyce! the system beat down somebody who actually had the balls to stand up for his beliefs. Never mind that all western law is based on the 10 commandments/judao-christian ideals... Mustn't pay homage to our roots...
Mad Ryan said:My real problem with this is that on one side you have a judge that's a decorated combat Veteran who stands up for his beliefs, and on the other side you have the same slimy cocksuckers that want to make sure that convicted child molesters can quietly move into your neighborhood without anyone knowing about it.
Why is it that you can't have any reference to god in a school or government building but you can have a devil as a public school mascot? WTF?
Also, there is no such thing as "separation of church and state", PERIOD. We have what's called the anti-establishment clause which basically states that congress shall not establish one religion. All this means is that the government can't have an "official" religion. Over the last 3 decades or so this has been twisted around by some to mean what we are seeing now.
What really pisses me off (And I'm not a particularly devout person) is that some scumbag can go to a publicly funded library and view porn on publicly bought computers and yet we can't have a representation of the 10 commandments on display in a courthouse.
ARTICLE 11
As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
Now be it known, That I John Adams, President of the United States of America, having seen and considered the said Treaty do, by and with the advice consent of the Senate, accept, ratify, and confirm the same, and every clause and article thereof. And to the End that the said Treaty may be observed and performed with good Faith on the part of the United States, I have ordered the premises to be made public; And I do hereby enjoin and require all persons bearing office civil or military within the United States, and all others citizens or inhabitants thereof, faithfully to observe and fulfil the said Treaty and every clause and article thereof.
Thomas Jefferson:
I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth.
Jefferson again:
Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus.
More Jefferson:
The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ.
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear. -
Jefferson's word for the Bible? Dunghill.
John Adams:
Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?
Also Adams:
The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.
Here's Thomas Paine:
I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible).
Among the most detestable villains in history, you could not find one worse than Moses. Here is an order, attributed to 'God' to butcher the boys, to massacre the mothers and to debauch and rape the daughters. I would not dare so dishonor my Creator's name by (attaching) it to this filthy book (the Bible).
It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible.
Accustom a people to believe that priests and clergy can forgive sins...and you will have sins in abundance.
The Christian church has set up a religion of pomp and revenue in pretended imitation of a person (Jesus) who lived a life of poverty.
I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church. - Thomas Paine
Finally let's hear from James Madison:
What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy.
Madison objected to state-supported chaplains in Congress and to the exemption of churches from taxation. He wrote:
Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.
These founding fathers were a reflection of the American population. Having escaped from the state-established religions of Europe, only 7% of the people in the 13 colonies belonged to a church when the Declaration of Independence was signed.
Among those who confuse Christianity with the founding of America, the rise of conservative Baptists is one of the more interesting developments. The Baptists believed God's authority came from the people, not the priesthood, and they had been persecuted for this belief. It was theythe Baptistswho were instrumental in securing the separation of church and state. They knew you can not have a "one-way wall" that lets religion into government but that does not let it out. They knew no religion is capable of handling political power without becoming corrupted by it. And, perhaps, they knew it was Christ himself who first proposed the separation of church and state: Give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto the Lord that which is the Lord's
In the last five years the Baptists have been taken over by a fundamentalist faction that insists authority comes from the Bible and that the individual must accept the interpretation of the Bible from a higher authority. These usurpers of the Baptist faith are those who insist they should meddle in the affairs of the government and it is they who insist the government should meddle in the beliefs of individuals.
The price of Liberty is constant vigilance. Religious fundamentalism and zealous patriotism have always been the forces which require the greatest attention. .
I'm not saying the Constitution is Judeo-Christian. I'm saying it is US history and heritage. Who came to Plymouth rock? Puritans.
Actually, the ACLU has made picking sympathetic judges an art form. They have a list of federal judges around the country that they can file their whacko legislation on behalf of whatever fringe group they are representing.
My opinion about the ACLU is that they're an organization without a purpose. They are running around the country stirring up s*** to keep themselves in business because there really isn't that much call for them anymore. I realize America isn't perfect, but if anything, we've gone too far. Rather than disregard someones race/sex/etc. the ACLU is now forcing us to give considerations to people based on race/sex/etc. which is BS.
Religious Liberty
Americans enjoy a degree of religious freedom unknown in most of the rest of the world, and they take full advantage it: the United States is home to more than 1,500 different religious bodies and 360,000 churches, synagogues and mosques.
The right of each and every American to practice his or her own religion, or no religion at all, is among the most fundamental of the freedoms guaranteed by the Bill of Rights. The Constitution's framers understood very well that religious liberty can flourish only if the government leaves religion alone. The free exercise clause of the First Amendment guarantees the right to practice one's religion free of government interference. The establishment clause requires the separation of church and state. Combined, they ensure religious liberty. Yet assaults on the freedom to believe continue, both in Washington and in state legislatures around the country.
The ACLU will continue working to ensure that religious liberty is protected by keeping the government out of the religion business. Use the resources on this page to learn more and take action to protect the rights guaranteed to all Americans by the Bill of Rights. Our latest news releases are listed to the left; actions you can take now are listed to the right, along with additional resources. The most recent religious liberty features are included directly below. www.aclu.com
Example 1: NAMBLA: (North American Man/Boy Love Assoc.) This is a group of Pedophiles that were smart enough to start a club so they could get quasi-protected status. I have no idea why the ACLU is going to bat for these sick ***** rights to bugger little boys but they are.
AMENDMENT I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Moore's Law
The immorality of the Ten Commandments.
By Christopher Hitchens
Posted Wednesday, August 27, 2003, at 2:04 PM PT
The row over the boulder-sized version of the so-called "Ten Commandments," and as to whether they should be exhibited in such massive shape on public property, misses the opportunity to consider these top-10 divine ordinances and their relationship to original intent. Judge Roy Moore is clearly, as well as a fool and a publicity-hound, a man who identifies the Mount Sinai orders to Moses with a certain interpretation of Protestantism. But we may ask ourselves why any sect, however primitive, would want to base itself on such vague pre-Christian desert morality (assuming Moses to be pre-Christian).
The first four of the commandments have little to do with either law or morality, and the first three suggest a terrific insecurity on the part of the person supposedly issuing them. I am the lord thy god and thou shalt have no other ... no graven images ... no taking of my name in vain: surely these could have been compressed into a more general injunction to show respect. The ensuing order to set aside a holy day is scarcely a moral or ethical one, unless you assume that other days are somehow profane. (The Rev. Ian Paisley, I remember, used to refuse interviewers for Sunday newspapers even after it was pointed out to him that it's the Monday edition that is prepared on Sunday.) Whereas a day of rest, as prefigured in the opening passages of Genesis, is no more than organized labor might have demanded, perhaps during the arduous days of unpaid pyramid erection.
So the first four commandments have almost nothing to do with moral conduct and cannot in any case be enforced by law unless the state forbids certain sorts of art all week, including religious and iconographic artand all activity on the Sabbath (which the words of the fourth commandment do not actually require). The next instruction is to honor one's parents: a harmless enough idea, but again unenforceable in law and inapplicable to the many orphans that nature or god sees fit to create. That there should be no itemized utterance enjoining the protection of children seems odd, given that the commandments are addressed in the first instance to adults. But then, the same god frequently urged his followers to exterminate various forgotten enemy tribes down to the last infant, sparing only the virgins, so this may be a case where hand-tying or absolute prohibitions were best avoided.
There has never yet been any society, Confucian or Buddhist or Islamic, where the legal codes did not frown upon murder and theft. These offenses were certainly crimes in the Pharaonic Egypt from which the children of Israel had, if the story is to be believed, just escaped. So the middle-ranking commandments, of which the chief one has long been confusingly rendered "thou shalt not kill," leave us none the wiser as to whether the almighty considers warfare to be murder, or taxation and confiscation to be theft. Tautology hovers over the whole enterprise.
In much the same way, few if any courts in any recorded society have approved the idea of perjury, so the idea that witnesses should tell the truth can scarcely have required a divine spark in order to take root. To how many of its original audience, I mean to say, can this have come with the force of revelation? Then it's a swift wrap-up with a condemnation of adultery (from which humans actually can refrain) and a prohibition upon covetousness (from which they cannot). To insist that people not annex their neighbor's cattle or wife "or anything that is his" might be reasonable, even if it does place the wife in the same category as the cattle, and presumably to that extent diminishes the offense of adultery. But to demand "don't even think about it" is absurd and totalitarian, and furthermore inhibiting to the Protestant spirit of entrepreneurship and competition.
One is presuming (is one not?) that this is the same god who actually created the audience he was addressing. This leaves us with the insoluble mystery of why he would have molded ("in his own image," yet) a covetous, murderous, disrespectful, lying, and adulterous species. Create them sick, and then command them to be well? What a mad despot this is, and how fortunate we are that he exists only in the minds of his worshippers.
It's obviously too much to expect that a Bronze Age demagogue should have remembered to condemn drug abuse, drunken driving, or offenses against gender equality, or to demand prayer in the schools. Still, to have left rape and child abuse and genocide and slavery out of the account is to have been negligent to some degree, even by the lax standards of the time. I wonder what would happen if secularists were now to insist that the verses of the Bible that actually recommend enslavement, mutilation, stoning, and mass murder of civilians be incised on the walls of, say, public libraries? There are many more than 10 commandments in the Old Testament, and I live for the day when Americans are obliged to observe all of them, including the ox-goring and witch-burning ones. (Who is Judge Moore to pick and choose?) Too many editorialists have described the recent flap as a silly confrontation with exhibitionist fundamentalism, when the true problem is our failure to recognize that religion is not just incongruent with morality but in essential ways incompatible with it.
Top eleven uses for the bit of stone now it has gone:
11. Flip it over and use it as an altar upon which to perform sacrificial blood offerings to Satan!
10. Hollow it out and fill it with ice to create the world's holiest beer cooler.
9. Slowly lower it on top of that idiot preacher who suffocated 8-year old, autistic Milwaukee boy Terrance Cotrell to death last week by sitting on his chest during an impromptu "exorcism." The same horrific fate should befall any other member of that ridiculous Christian coven who was stupid enough to take part.
8. Cornerstone for a brand-spanking-new abortion clinic!
7. Put it in an overgrown field with an outhouse, a rusted out Cadilac, an abandoned refrigerator and voila! Redneck Stonehenge!
6. Paperweight for God's legal briefs in the upcoming post-Armageddon sentencing trials.
5. Use it as ballast on the converted cruise ship where Preznit Dubya will have to live in exile, becauseafter his removal from office and the subsequent investigations, trial, and horrific revelations of criminal conspiracy on a barely-imaginable scaleno other country on earth will be willing to take him.
4. Auction it off on e-bay and use the proceeds to help pay for upgrades to Alabama's crumbling and antiquated infrastructure.
3. Convert it into two tons worth of marble floor tiles for a gay homosexual bathhouse.
2. Use it as a tombstone for Charlton Heston once he finally kicks the bucket.
1. Take a sand-blaster and scour away the commandments, then replace them with the First Amendment, which reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances." That has a helluva lot more to do with the law of the land than whether or not you get along with your folks, work an extra shift on a Sunday, or say "Godamn!" when you stub your toe.
1. I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
5. Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
6. Thou shalt not kill
Let's get real, folks. This text was written at a time when "adultery" meant sexual contact with a married woman, an engaged woman, or a virgin who was not the adulterer's wife. Sex with other females was not included, because establishing the paternity of any offspring was the motive; it was a civil matter, not a criminal one. As Mr. Granski points out, a deflowered virgin had a much lower "value" on the bridal market, and the punishment was payment equal to the loss of value. Life is complicated...7. Thou shalt not commit adultery
8. Thou shalt not steal.
Question: does this one include gossip? If so, Hell's going to be crowded. In civil law, there's already a set of rules in place, with serious penalties for slander, libel, perjury, etc., but I don't think we need any worse experience than going through the court system, thank you. I'll take brimstone.9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
First of all, in what way does the state acknowledging God, not violate separation of church and state? Last I checked, believing in a god was the expressed domain of religion. Are atheists and agnostics recognized by the state only as godless savages, and therefore, not as deserving of unbiased legislation? Can the citizens of Alabama believe in anything they want to, so long as they believe in a god?
I don't know that atheists should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God." - George Bush
It's fine for everyone to have their own beliefs and ideals, but when someone convinces you that you're so special that 1) the rules just don't apply or 2) you just don't fit, than you're no longer an American, you just live here because it's convenient. Our country that I've fought for is becoming a country of individuals who are much more concearned with their own status as a individuals than they are as parts of the bigger entity of America
I will not reply back to any posts even direct questions.
Does this mean my boss can come down and tell me how to decorate my office?
We live in the Bible Belt. I love it here. Good people (for the most part) and good country life.
The latter believe that all cultures/views have equal validity which in a perfect/utopian world may be true, is in reality total BS. I'm well acquainted with moral relativism, as I've been attending a university for the last 5 years. It's total horseshit
didnt he have to put his hand on a bible to be sworn in
brennan said:This was takin from the old testament, alot of things in the old testament were abolished when christ came.
