2018 CX-5 GT Ticking sound?

[bucko2855]

I hope Bucko reports back, he must have had his lifters replaced by now.

Sorry for delay folks , busy with home reno's


So long and the short of it , Mazda Canada approved the dealerships diagnosis and it was the HLA making the noise. They followed the USA protocol and replaced the two required for the fix. Apparently this is starting to be recognized in Canada as a potential issue with the engine components but doesn't appear until 35000Km + of operation and is more prominent in cold weather when the metal surfaces contract more from being cold allowing more distance between contact along with HLA issues

. The Service Manager was fantastic given the fact that we had to have the proper temps to recreate the issue. After putting a stethoscope onto the noise source they agreed it was a contact noise in the valve train.

Main thing is if you have a noise in your engine and you don't like the sound of it, schedule an appointment with a dealer and get it on record. In my case if it wasn't fixed this would've had serious implications later in engine life. Although noises can be attributed to other factors like some have said, if you cannot differentiate between a metal on metal noise (which mine was) and other sounds attributed to injectors, cylinder deactivation etc etc then take it in to be looked at.

 

[bucko2855]

Bucko2855 did they finish the work yet? Did they replace all of them? Is the noise gone?

see my post on page 6

 

[bucko2855]

Bucko had scheduled an appointment almost two weeks ago but he didn't give a follow up here. Maybe they didn't have the master tech or parts available yet. We never heard back from the guy with the incorrect oil either.

see my post above guys...all fixed

 

[edmaz]

.... Apparently this is starting to be recognized in Canada as a potential issue with the engine components but doesn't appear until 35000Km + of operation and is more prominent in cold weather when the metal surfaces contract more from being cold allowing more distance between contact along with HLA issues .....

Thanks for the follow-up and the additional information.

First off, cold weather is well established as a potential issue for all engines, so I'm not necessarily doubting the validity of those statements from your Mazda dealer, A great deal of time and effort has been spent on developing oils (0W, ....) to help address cold weather startup issues, so what they're saying comes as no surprise to me at all. That said, there's nothing related to cold weather operation in any of the Mazda TSBs covering this issue. So do you know if Mazda Canada has sent anything to their dealers, beyond what has been communicated in the TSBs?

The next question I have is related to the focus Mazda has given to 'air bubbles' in their documentation. I'm having a problem believing that air bubbles has a direct relationship to cold weather, and visa versa. Did your Mazda dealer mention air bubbles at all? And do you know if they followed the TSB protocol of removing the valve cover and testing the HLAs for air bubbles by pressing on them, looking for movement?

Next question is what oil (especially viscosity), and oil change interval has been used over the life of your vehicle so far? If cold weather is actually the key player in this issue, then oil type and maintenance becomes even more critical than it already is. If the oil changes in your vehicle were not done by your dealer, then did they question the maintenance and ask for oil change documentation?

And my final question is approximately how long do you warm up your vehicle on colder (below freezing) days, and do you extend the warm-up time at all, as the ambient temps go lower? And an extension to this is how hard you push the engine during the first few minutes of driving after warm-up.

Sorry for all of these questions, but I believe there's a fairly good chance that what your dealer told you is very much on the money, and so I'm looking for every bit of additional information that you might have received from them.

Good to read that they took care of this for you so well!

 

[bucko2855]

Thanks for the follow-up and the additional information.

First off, cold weather is well established as a potential issue for all engines, so I'm not necessarily doubting the validity of those statements from your Mazda dealer, A great deal of time and effort has been spent on developing oils (0W, ....) to help address cold weather startup issues, so what they're saying comes as no surprise to me at all. That said, there's nothing related to cold weather operation in any of the Mazda TSBs covering this issue. So do you know if Mazda Canada has sent anything to their dealers, beyond what has been communicated in the TSBs?

The next question I have is related to the focus Mazda has given to 'air bubbles' in their documentation. I'm having a problem believing that air bubbles has a direct relationship to cold weather, and visa versa. Did your Mazda dealer mention air bubbles at all? And do you know if they followed the TSB protocol of removing the valve cover and testing the HLAs for air bubbles by pressing on them, looking for movement?

Next question is what oil (especially viscosity), and oil change interval has been used over the life of your vehicle so far? If cold weather is actually the key player in this issue, then oil type and maintenance becomes even more critical than it already is. If the oil changes in your vehicle were not done by your dealer, then did they question the maintenance and ask for oil change documentation?

And my final question is approximately how long do you warm up your vehicle on colder (below freezing) days, and do you extend the warm-up time at all, as the ambient temps go lower? And an extension to this is how hard you push the engine during the first few minutes of driving after warm-up.

Sorry for all of these questions, but I believe there's a fairly good chance that what your dealer told you is very much on the money, and so I'm looking for every bit of additional information that you might have received from them.

Good to read that they took care of this for you so well!

I use the exact oil specified for oil changes using high grade synthetic 0w20 with Wix oil filters every 5000 kms . ( i do all my own servicing and neither did they ask for records or receipts for what filters I use) The vehicle was warmed up for 10 minutes before driving city streets and the knocking didnt diminish until almost 20-30 mins later

This is not the air bubble TSB issue there are 2 separate TSB's They used the air bubble TSB the first time i went in to try and eliminate that issue. When it didnt stop the knocking they then looked at the HLA replacement TSB. This is a completely different issue than air. The HLA was the wrong and/or faulty and had to be replaced. rather than an air bubble it was described as bleeding down essentially losing pressure. I suspect the colder it gets the more the metal parts contract that allows for this bleeding to occur. Thats merely my surmising given what occurred with temperatures etc.

see below TSB Hope this helps

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2019/MC-10168140-0001.pdf

 

[edmaz]

....
This is not the air bubble TSB issue there are 2 separate TSB's They used the air bubble TSB the first time i went in to try and eliminate that issue. When it didnt stop the knocking they then looked at the HLA replacement TSB. This is a completely different issue than air. The HLA was the wrong and/or faulty and had to be replaced. rather than an air bubble it was described as bleeding down essentially losing pressure. I suspect the colder it gets the more the metal parts contract that allows for this bleeding to occur. Thats merely my surmising given what occurred with temperatures etc. ....

Thanks for the additional information, but one thing that you need to be aware of is that Mazda has thrown that foolish 'rev for 5 minutes at 2K' procedure out the window with their latest update of the 'air bubble' TSB. They woke up to the fact that it never worked, and the automaker is now specifying HLA replacement as the only corrective action for this tapping noise issue.

So given that the symptom in the 2 TSBs is the same (noise), and the remediation is also the same (HLA replacement), IMO it's unclear if these are 2 completely separate and unique problems, or are actually in the process of merging into one single issue. But regardless of how many distinct flavors of this HLA problem there are, I suspect this we have not yet seen the 'final' statement from Mazda. This seems to be a target that's still moving on them, and at this point it would be no surprise to see them release additional updates related to it.

I'm also really surprised that your dealer didn't ask for oil change documentation. You've obviously been doing really good maintenance, but I don't understand why they would assume that's the case. These outfits are normally always thinking about ways to void the warranty, and inadequate oil changes is the easiest reason they can use. And, in fairness to them, the warranty should be voided when oil maintenance is badly inadequate.

Anyway, this is all in the rear view mirror for you now, and hopefully those replacement adjusters will permanently eliminate the problem.

 

[bucko2855]

Regarding the service records I suspect that since we have purchased 6 Mazda vehicles from the dealer to the tune of about 195000 CAD over the past 10 years that may have something to do with why they’re not questioning or trying to find loopholes

 

[edmaz]

Yep, that clears it up for me. They're not about to get an A+ customer like you annoyed over some stupid trivial thing like oil change records

 

[bucko2855]

Yep, that clears it up for me. They're not about to get an A+ customer like you annoyed over some stupid trivial thing like oil change records

Hahahah. Exactly ! Plus they’ve seen my work before. I brought our 2010 Mazda 6 in for recall on airbags and they did a complimentary inspection while I was there. The service guy asked where I got my brakes done. I started to get ready to go on defensive and told him i did them. He laughed and said that explained it. The mechanic said he couldn’t believe how pristine wverything was when we had just gone through the winter season with tons of road salt applied

 

[yrwei52]

Sorry for delay folks , busy with home reno's


So long and the short of it , Mazda Canada approved the dealerships diagnosis and it was the HLA making the noise. They followed the USA protocol and replaced the two required for the fix. Apparently this is starting to be recognized in Canada as a potential issue with the engine components but doesn't appear until 35000Km + of operation and is more prominent in cold weather when the metal surfaces contract more from being cold allowing more distance between contact along with HLA issues

. The Service Manager was fantastic given the fact that we had to have the proper temps to recreate the issue. After putting a stethoscope onto the noise source they agreed it was a contact noise in the valve train.

Main thing is if you have a noise in your engine and you don't like the sound of it, schedule an appointment with a dealer and get it on record. In my case if it wasn't fixed this would've had serious implications later in engine life. Although noises can be attributed to other factors like some have said, if you cannot differentiate between a metal on metal noise (which mine was) and other sounds attributed to injectors, cylinder deactivation etc etc then take it in to be looked at.

Thanks for the update. I’d agree with edmaz that the problem is a design issue on switchable HLAs used on cylinder #1 and #4, and has nothing to do with colder weather in Canada. Now Mazda has to modify the switchable HLAs for increased oil supply to reduce air bubbles in the oil passage hence the tapping noise. Remember the recall on fallen rocker arms which also related to improper oil pressure used on switchable HLAs and the PCM update is mainly to increase the oil pressure preventing the rocker arms fallen. Everything is related to poorly designed switchable HLAs to begin with, and I’d also agree with edmaz that this could be still a temperature fix, and Mazda engineers may still be busy trying to find a permanent fix, if any.

 

[edmaz]

.... and Mazda engineers may still be busy trying to find a permanent fix, if any.

Yes, the sequence of TSBs that Mazda has released makes it appear that they've been floundering on this. A wacky engine-revving procedure to remove 'air bubbles', followed a few months later by tossing that in the trash bin, with a major repair taking it's place.

And some other really odd things, such as having a tech trying to identify the specific HLA(s) making noise, and replace only those. Why not do the much more logical thing and replace all of them? All of the work to open it up has already been done, so why not spend a few extra minutes and a small amount of additional $$, to do this work (hopefully) just one time. I wonder if they're going to be surprised, if and when they get some of these noise makers coming back in, needing HLAs replaced which were not done during the initial repair job? Very short sighted on their part IMO.

One other thing about this HLA/rocker arm stuff is that there are probably very few higher mileage Skyactiv-CD engines at this point in time, especially due to the greatly reduced amount of driving during the pandemic. So this means that the great majority of CD-related issues have been happening to vehicles under warranty. And when the automaker covers the cost of repairs, owners typically don't show up on these forums making a big fuss about it. If it were not for Bucko's report, we wouldn't even have one start-to-finish episode of this HLA problem to learn from.

I can't help feeling that the long-term outlook for these engines is not very promising. Based on everything that Mazda has communicated so far, the CD-related changes are exceptionally sensitive to oil pressure/flow. Mazda has already admitted to making a major mistake on the design of the HLA, and who knows what else is yet to come that they're not even aware of yet. I've always been able to keep vehicles for 10 years or more, but have lots of doubts about running this one for that amount of time. Hoping I'm wrong, but as always, time will tell about that.

 

[yrwei52]

Yes, the sequence of TSBs that Mazda has released makes it appear that they've been floundering on this. A wacky engine-revving procedure to remove 'air bubbles', followed a few months later by tossing that in the trash bin, with a major repair taking it's place.

And some other really odd things, such as having a tech trying to identify the specific HLA(s) making noise, and replace only those. Why not do the much more logical thing and replace all of them? All of the work to open it up has already been done, so why not spend a few extra minutes and a small amount of additional $$, to do this work (hopefully) just one time. I wonder if they're going to be surprised, if and when they get some of these noise makers coming back in, needing HLAs replaced which were not done during the initial repair job? Very short sighted on their part IMO.

One other thing about this HLA/rocker arm stuff is that there are probably very few higher mileage Skyactiv-CD engines at this point in time, especially due to the greatly reduced amount of driving during the pandemic. So this means that the great majority of CD-related issues have been happening to vehicles under warranty. And when the automaker covers the cost of repairs, owners typically don't show up on these forums making a big fuss about it. If it were not for Bucko's report, we wouldn't even have one start-to-finish episode of this HLA problem to learn from.

I can't help feeling that the long-term outlook for these engines is not very promising. Based on everything that Mazda has communicated so far, the CD-related changes are exceptionally sensitive to oil pressure/flow. Mazda has already admitted to making a major mistake on the design of the HLA, and who knows what else is yet to come that they're not even aware of yet. I've always been able to keep vehicles for 10 years or more, but have lots of doubts about running this one for that amount of time. Hoping I'm wrong, but as always, time will tell about that.

Remember Mazda had resigned many components in engine、transmission、and even exhaust system on catalytic converter for cylinder deactivation. In addition to CD equipped switchable hydraulic lash adjusters mentioned above, we’ve also seen several TSBs on coolant control valve problem and transmission problem which IMO certainly are related to CD.

2018 Mazda CX-5 jerky at low speeds

2019 CX-5, Coolant problem (CEL = P0126)

 

[Mazdaspin]

Bought my 2018 CX5 GTR and just hit 43k and the ticking started. Took it to the dealer they said it was normal although by the time I was there the ticking had quieted. Got my oil changed and it went away totally, until now when I'm due for my next oil change. The ticking came back with a vengeance, also seems to go away after the engine is warm enough. I live in Florida so no temps below 60 degrees and I still get ticking. I added some oil because I was a tad low and I can't get my oil changed for another 3 weeks. It seemed to fix the ticking for now, I was afraid of driving weeks with the ticking and it damaging my engine, that's why I added more oil. Happy/not so happy to see this is a common problem. The ticking is so annoying, especially after buying a new to me car and having it for just a year.

 

[edmaz]

... Got my oil changed and it went away totally, until now when I'm due for my next oil change. The ticking came back with a vengeance, also seems to go away after the engine is warm enough.... I added some oil because I was a tad low .... It seemed to fix the ticking for now, ...

All of the things in your post above points to the ticking from your vehicle being directly related to the oil - perhaps just the level, but maybe more than that as well. Most (all?) of us on this forum who DIY use a top quality full synthetic oil, such as Castrol Edge 0W20 (non-turbo), and believe that it's very important to do so with these engines.

So the first thing to do is find out what oil the stealership has been putting in your vehicle. Don't assume for a moment that they use top shelf oil for oil changes, if you don't request anything specific. I've read a number of reports of these outfits using drums of bulk oil, where little or no information is available about that fluid. Take a look at your previous oil change paperwork and see what was printed about the oil brand, type, and viscosity. If there's nothing meaningful on your paperwork about the oil, then that's not a good sign, and you'll have to start digging into exactly what they are using.

Next, you should start checking the oil level more frequently, including immediately after the upcoming oil change. Hopefully you're aware that you need to wait at least 5 minutes after shutting off the vehicle, before doing the level check. Many guys here wait quite a bit longer, including some who check it cold in the morning, but anything past 5 minutes is fine. You want to find out if your engine is using oil, and if the ticking noise can be correlated to the oil level dropping.

 

[yrwei52]

Bought my 2018 CX5 GTR and just hit 43k and the ticking started. Took it to the dealer they said it was normal although by the time I was there the ticking had quieted. Got my oil changed and it went away totally, until now when I'm due for my next oil change. The ticking came back with a vengeance, also seems to go away after the engine is warm enough. I live in Florida so no temps below 60 degrees and I still get ticking. I added some oil because I was a tad low and I can't get my oil changed for another 3 weeks. It seemed to fix the ticking for now, I was afraid of driving weeks with the ticking and it damaging my engine, that's why I added more oil. Happy/not so happy to see this is a common problem. The ticking is so annoying, especially after buying a new to me car and having it for just a year.

GTR (Grand Touring Reserve) with 2.5T started available in 2019 MY on CX-5. If your CX-5 really has a 2.5T but a 2019 CX-5, this valve ticking noise and related TSBs discussed in this thread don’t apply.

On the other hand, if you have a 2018 GT with a 2.5L NA, your switchable hydraulic lash adjusters used on cylinder deactivation is failing. Be consistent and present TSBs to your Mazda dealer, and contact Mazda North American Operations for the problem. Make sure doing this way before your 5-year / 60,000-mile powertrain warranty expires.

 

[edmaz]

.....
On the other hand, if you have a 2018 GT with a 2.5L NA, your switchable hydraulic lash adjusters used on cylinder deactivation is failing. Be consistent and present TSBs to your Mazda dealer, and contact Mazda North American Operations for the problem. Make sure doing this way before your 5-year / 60,000-mile powertrain warranty expires.

Unfortunately, in this case the OP stated that 'ticking had quieted' when the vehicle arrived at Mazda. Although we cannot know how much ticking there actually was at that time, they told him/her that it was 'normal'. The first step listed in the TSB is "Verify customer concern". So unless this vehicle can be brought to them making 'enough' noise (whatever that might be), they're understandable not going to give any consideration to the TSB. Yes, the OP could try to convince them there was more tapping previously, however I don't think he/she will get them to take any action on that. They probably wouldn't even document the OP's noise complaint if they cannot hear it coming from the vehicle.

But naturally, what I wrote above would no longer apply if this vehicle starts ticking continuously, instead of the on/off that the OP has described.

 

[MyFirstMazda]

Maybe Mazdaspin can make a video of his engine when he starts it cold for us, and the dealership to listen to. Maybe his lifters get an air bubble in them and they work themselves out after driving. No engine damage will occur from the noisy lifters, it is just an annoyance. I wonder if 5w-30 oil would quiet his engine.

 

[yrwei52]

Maybe Mazdaspin can make a video of his engine when he starts it cold for us, and the dealership to listen to. Maybe his lifters get an air bubble in them and they work themselves out after driving. No engine damage will occur from the noisy lifters, it is just an annoyance. I wonder if 5w-30 oil would quiet his engine.

There’re at least 2 TSBs for this valve noise issue on 2.5L NA with CD. The way how Mazda is trying to fix the air bubble is a joke IMO (rev the engine at 3,000 rpm for 10 minutes or something like that) , as the root cause has never been addressed. The later TSB mentioned the “switchable” HLA has been modified to fix the noise issue. This means the original SHLAs are having design issues, which may be caused by the changed oil pressure made by the rocker arm fallen recall.

If you think noisy valves won’t cause any engine damage, think again ⋯

 

[edmaz]

Maybe Mazdaspin can make a video of his engine when he starts it cold for us, and the dealership to listen to.

I don't want to keep sounding like the turd in the punchbowl on this, but the TSB requires the noise to be actively present. Step 2 of the TSB tells them to use a stethoscope to locate the noise. I can't see them being willing to proceed with any of this if the noise isn't happening at the time the vehicle is in their shop. Perhaps they might make a note that they listened to the video, but that's about it IMO.

Maybe his lifters get an air bubble in them and they work themselves out after driving.

Now that right there is a very interesting question, and it's something that I've also been wondering about. Based on the long history and content of the TSB, I get the feeling that this air bubble issue has been a big problem for Mazda, and is something they've been obviously wrestling with for quite a while. The following wording in the TSB is key to understanding where they are at with this: "If it (the switchable HLA) can be compressed even a little, it should be replaced"

Note that there's nothing there about trying even one time to have the owner drive for a short period of time and then come back to check the noise again. This HLA replacement is a really big and costly job for Mazda, but nevertheless they are immediately committing to doing the work, based on a single episode of noise. This jumps off the page at me, and seems to be a very strong indicator that Mazda knows for certain that the air bubbles are not going away, once they show up.

No engine damage will occur from the noisy lifters, it is just an annoyance.

It could very well be that transient lifter noise (such as at startup) may be just an annoyance and not actually harmful to the engine. The jury is still out on that. However, for the same reason as I wrote above, it seems very apparent that Mazda feels the air bubble issue is a serious problem, which will ultimately do even more damage to the engine. If that were not the case, then they would just allow these engines to continue to run, and make the engine repair when and if it breaks down. Seems to me that Mazda is very sure of what the ultimate outcome of these air bubbles will be.

I wonder if 5w-30 oil would quiet his engine.

As I wrote earlier, I believe that multiple oil considerations might very well be in play for Mazdaspin's engine noise.

 

[Ninety-9]

Hey Ya'll. I just joined to post my problem. Mine is quite a bit louder but I believe it to be the same issue.

2016 CX-5 GT with the N/A Skyactiv-G 2.5
The sound can be heard at idle, but it's extremely loud at around 1500-2000rpm.
Doesn't matter if the engine is cold or warmed up.
Yes, I realize most of this discussion is the 2018+ with cyl deactivation.

It started at around 85,000mi, I originally thought it might have been because of a prolonged oil change. I usually change every 5k (every 5 and 10k on the odometer), but I went about 8k, which is still well within the limits of my synthetic oil.

I religiously use Castrol Edge Fully Syn. I use 5w20, but I can justify in a warmer climate (Florida). After I changed the oil and the noise didn't go away, I tried Lucas Synthetic Oil stabilizer to see if it would help, but no change.

I originally thought it was in the timing chain or tensioner, but I'm now thinking it's a Lifter, like you guys mentioned. After taking the plastic engine cover off, I want to say the noise is loudest between cylinders 1 and 2 (assuming 1 is closest to the PS Pump).

It doesn't seem to be a reliability issue. It's been like this for about 9 months and over 10,000mi, my wife primarily drives it. It's super annoying at low speeds and I can always hear my wife's car approaching from up the road.

Here's a sound clip:

2016 Mazda CX-5: Bad Rattling in Timing Chain 2.5L Skyactiv-G Non-Turbo

Not sure what it is yet. Will report back. Rattling occurs mostly between 1500-3000rpm 2016 Mazda CX-5 GT Grand Touring Skyactiv-G 2.5L N/A Non-turboI'm usin...

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