Barefoot Running? Anyone Else Try it?

[coyfish]

Natural selection is not what you're discussing here. Natural selection comes into play with traits that affect the individuals ability to pass on their genes/traits by reproducing. Cushioned shoes affecting feet has nothing to do with sexual selection. Someone with bad arches and poor feet could still reproduce and pass on those genes, so natural selection is pretty much moot, as what we are discussing does not affect their ability to obtain a sexual partner (at least theoretically).

Genetic drift is just the proportions of alleles. Its probability basically. It's not a form of evolution. Its just a part of the picture that plays into evolution. The initial group of individuals who begin a community are going to have ALL of the alleles that will eventually populate the entire community. It is then just the frequency that different alleles show up within the given gene pool...

Genetic drift can take place in far less than 15-20 generations. And coinciding with this, if people from urban cities lived as the mexican tribes did. Then within a couple generations, they would be very similar physically to the Mexican Indians who are there now. The Human gene pool is VERY limited. Most of the changes you speak of are related to environmental factors that influence groups of people in as little as a few generations.

We would have those feet too, if we grew up in the same conditions those indians did and had children that grew up in that same environment.

I would be an Anthropology Major if I wasn't greedy. I could still probably qualify for a Minor in anthro with like 1 more class if I wanted.

./Sorry for the Threadjack!

Forget it your caught up in the science and completely ignoring the point im trying to make. Science has shown animals that have changed DRASTICALLY in as short as 30 generations simply on environmental relocation. Evolution doesn't have to take place over thousands of years. Thats still not what im talking about though. That IS evolution and your still not following but lets just drop the argument because its not relevant to the OP. Forget the terms and just focus on the issue.

Im not saying that those tribes have superhuman feet with 7 toes. Im saying that they have traits better suited for running. They have reproduced amongst themselves for a long time. They have different characteristics than others. Just in the anatomy of their bone structure / etc. Some people in other parts of the world may have the same anatomy but its not proliferated like it is in those tribes.

You said: "We would have those feet too, if we grew up in the same conditions those indians did and had children that grew up in that same environment" - No,


Ill bring up the Kenyan's again. SOO many of them are great runners. Especially when you compare populations. Thats not random. Thats what im trying to illustrate. Now im not trying to say that all kenyan's are champion runners or that none of them have problems. Nor am I saying that there aren't any good runners from the US or anything like that. Im saying that genes that are better suited for runners have proliferated amongst those people moreso than they have in our diversified cities.

 

[ucMP3]

Forget it your caught up in the science and completely ignoring the point im trying to make. Science has shown animals that have changed DRASTICALLY in as short as 30 generations simply on environmental relocation. Evolution doesn't have to take place over thousands of years. Thats still not what im talking about though. That IS evolution and your still not following but lets just drop the argument because its not relevant to the OP. Forget the terms and just focus on the issue.

Im not saying that those tribes have superhuman feet with 7 toes. Im saying that they have traits better suited for running. They have reproduced amongst themselves for a long time. They have different characteristics than others. Just in the anatomy of their bone structure / etc. Some people in other parts of the world may have the same anatomy but its not proliferated like it is in those tribes.

You said: "We would have those feet too, if we grew up in the same conditions those indians did and had children that grew up in that same environment" - No,


Ill bring up the Kenyan's again. SOO many of them are great runners. Especially when you compare populations. Thats not random. Thats what im trying to illustrate. Now im not trying to say that all kenyan's are champion runners or that none of them have problems. Nor am I saying that there aren't any good runners from the US or anything like that. Im saying that genes that are better suited for runners have proliferated amongst those people moreso than they have in our diversified cities.

No need to get upset & nasty. I'm just having a conversation...

From what I bolded up above, I had already said that. You're sort of agreeing with what I said while arguing against me at the same time. I think you're just mixing up/throwing around terms a bit. Evolution does not have the same meaning as adaptation. They are similar and involved but not the same.
Environmental surroundings can have a profound impact on an individuals physiology. Even in the short-term.

In the case of the Kenyans being good runners, could it not be that the environment and lives they live lead them to be good runners? They live in a high elevation environment where the air is much more thin. Their lungs & hearts comparatively have to work much harder to supply oxygen to their bodies versus many other people.

This is why many marathon runners train in the off seasons in areas such as this where the oxygen levels are much lower. It creates a competitive advantage when you then run a race at sea level.

But I don't want to argue with you or anyone, and I apologize if it seemed as if I was earlier. I enjoy having discussions, but this seems to be going south quickly.

 

[coyfish]

No need to get upset & nasty. I'm just having a conversation...

From what I bolded up above, I had already said that. You're sort of agreeing with what I said while arguing against me at the same time. I think you're just mixing up/throwing around terms a bit. Evolution does not have the same meaning as adaptation. They are similar and involved but not the same.
Environmental surroundings can have a profound impact on an individuals physiology. Even in the short-term.

In the case of the Kenyans being good runners, could it not be that the environment and lives they live lead them to be good runners? They live in a high elevation environment where the air is much more thin. Their lungs & hearts comparatively have to work much harder to supply oxygen to their bodies versus many other people.

This is why many marathon runners train in the off seasons in areas such as this where the oxygen levels are much lower. It creates a competitive advantage when you then run a race at sea level.

But I don't want to argue with you or anyone, and I apologize if it seemed as if I was earlier. I enjoy having discussions, but this seems to be going south quickly.

Wasn't trying to be nasty even though I was quite annoyed to have you tell me (being a med school student) that my bio is lacking. Just looks like your picking at minor details while overlooking the main issue.

When did you say what you bolded. You said changes take thousands of years to occur. 30 generations in most animals is not even close to that. Contrary to popular belief evolution can happen quickly. Evolution is not always growing a 2nd head. The changes can be minor.


Anyways . . . Yes you are right the high altitude has benefits. But its not just one thing that makes these people great runners. Its many factors from culture to environment. Regardless the GENETICS is what im talking about. You obviosly don't believe that it makes a difference and thats fine. Its your opinion and I respect that.

Let me post an article that illustrates what im trying to say . . .

http://www.slate.com/id/2090658/

I read a few but that one seems to hit all the points I have previosly mentioned.

Sorry if I offended you. That wasn't my intention. Let me know what you think about that article.

 

[ucMP3]

Wasn't trying to be nasty even though I was quite annoyed to have you tell me (being a med school student) that my bio is lacking. Just looks like your picking at minor details while overlooking the main issue.

When did you say what you bolded. You said changes take thousands of years to occur. 30 generations in most animals is not even close to that. Contrary to popular belief evolution can happen quickly. Evolution is not always growing a 2nd head. The changes can be minor.


Anyways . . . Yes you are right the high altitude has benefits. But its not just one thing that makes these people great runners. Its many factors from culture to environment. Regardless the GENETICS is what im talking about. You obviosly don't believe that it makes a difference and thats fine. Its your opinion and I respect that.

Let me post an article that illustrates what im trying to say . . .

http://www.slate.com/id/2090658/

I read a few but that one seems to hit all the points I have previosly mentioned.

Sorry if I offended you. That wasn't my intention. Let me know what you think about that article.

I dind't mean to undermine your backround in biology, although medical biology is a bit different from anthropological/evolutionary biology...

Thats a pretty interesting article.

The article hits nicely on both points, environmental factors (thin air @ high altitudes & also strong involvement of running within the culture) as well as genetic factors affecting the running success of Kenyans.

"So, perhaps a more important factor is the nation's running culture, particularly among the Kalenjin tribe."
"It has been suggested that Kenyan children are aided by the fact that many run to and from school. Two-time Olympian Charles Cheruiyot, for example, has stated that young Kenyans typically run 10 miles a day."

>Growing up in a culture where running is so important and part of the everyday lifestyle, is going to make a large impact.

"In centuries past, the most successful members of the tribe were those who could round up the most cows. These fleet-footed men were thus able to garner more wives, and in turn produce more children. "

This is why I made a note to say (theoretically) that it doesn't affect reproductive success. But this apparently does affect reproductive success, lol. *Natural slection at its finest.

 

[coyfish]

I understand I was stretching the evolutionary biology terms a bit far but I think you see what I was getting at.

As we both understand there is no ONE factor that make Kenyan's good runners but I do think when comparing the legs of a kenyan (as in the article) to those of an average marathoner you will find some differences. Not "evolutionary" differences per say but anatomies more suited for running. Everybody can be molded and shaped to a certain degree but as I have unfortunately experienced first hand, you can only stray so far from your genetic mold.

I lost a D1 soccer scholarship because I got a stress fracture in my leg. I have tried everything from barefoot running to the highest support custom fabricated shoes. So far custom orthodics have worked the best. I ran a couple marathons 4 years ago when I was still playing soccer. Now I only do triathlons (5-6 mile runs) because anything more than 2 runs a week leaves me with nasty pain. I just do them for fun and ive only done 3 in the past year. I just don't know what to do anymore. Ive had MRI's from specialized ortho's, XRAYS, sports therapy, and both my parents are docs . . . Guess im one of the lucky few. Maybe its a blessing in disguise because running is so hard on the body. I can still play tennis at a high level which is odd. But I can't play sports that involve sprinting / constant pounding like basketball / soccer unless I want some nasty pains.

 

[LinuxRacr]

So now back to the topic of barefoot running....

 

[ek1nspeed03]

I think it wouldnt hurt to try it sometimes. I was at the Marine Corp marathon last sunday and I saw this guy running barefooted for 26.2 miles. So, there must be some benifits.

 

[ucMP3]

I think it wouldnt hurt to try it sometimes. I was at the Marine Corp marathon last sunday and I saw this guy running barefooted for 26.2 miles. So, there must be some benifits.

An interesting perspective. If someone else is doing it, there must be benefits. I think this is how cigarettes caught on...

 

[LinuxRacr]

Hahaha! Well, there are benefits in this case....and if one doesn't condition their bodies correctly, setbacks as well...

 

[tunersteve]

I did a lot of research on this back when I sold footwear, and it definitely has its benefits. I am thinking of throwing this in once a week in my running regimen to strenghten up my calves and help with foot strength as well.

 

[Nuffflavor]

I understand I was stretching the evolutionary biology terms a bit far but I think you see what I was getting at.

As we both understand there is no ONE factor that make Kenyan's good runners but I do think when comparing the legs of a kenyan (as in the article) to those of an average marathoner you will find some differences. Not "evolutionary" differences per say but anatomies more suited for running. Everybody can be molded and shaped to a certain degree but as I have unfortunately experienced first hand, you can only stray so far from your genetic mold.

I lost a D1 soccer scholarship because I got a stress fracture in my leg. I have tried everything from barefoot running to the highest support custom fabricated shoes. So far custom orthodics have worked the best. I ran a couple marathons 4 years ago when I was still playing soccer. Now I only do triathlons (5-6 mile runs) because anything more than 2 runs a week leaves me with nasty pain. I just do them for fun and ive only done 3 in the past year. I just don't know what to do anymore. Ive had MRI's from specialized ortho's, XRAYS, sports therapy, and both my parents are docs . . . Guess im one of the lucky few. Maybe its a blessing in disguise because running is so hard on the body. I can still play tennis at a high level which is odd. But I can't play sports that involve sprinting / constant pounding like basketball / soccer unless I want some nasty pains.

Sounds like ya'll are all over it, but we must also remember we (humans) can only speculate, and no one is a 100% sure if it takes a couple of generations or centuries (maybe both depending on aspect) to Evolve, adapt.... what ever the case maybe.

Anywho, running.... until Usain Bolt, WE (USA) were the fastest runners (with shoes on)... hmmmm how does this play into the lack of shoes & Evolution scenario? (Even though he is a shoe wearer too).

I would say like some posters mentioned... shoes are for protection. I ran around all my teenage life without shoes, and my feet were a lot stronger, but it was also easier to catch a stub toe, cut foot, or bruised foot when passing over something harder and strong then them. Of course this was in St.thomas United States Virgin Islands. Up here in Virginia is less feasible, due to change in environment, to do the same... run around....place to run without shoes. (boom07)

 

[ucMP3]

Sounds like ya'll are all over it, but we must also remember we (humans) can only speculate, and no one is a 100% sure if it takes a couple of generations or centuries (maybe both depending on aspect) to Evolve, adapt.... what ever the case maybe.

Anywho, running.... until Usain Bolt, WE (USA) were the fastest runners (with shoes on)... hmmmm how does this play into the lack of shoes & Evolution scenario? (Even though he is a shoe wearer too).

I would say like some posters mentioned... shoes are for protection. I ran around all my teenage life without shoes, and my feet were a lot stronger, but it was also easier to catch a stub toe, cut foot, or bruised foot when passing over something harder and strong then them. Of course this was in St.thomas United States Virgin Islands. Up here in Virginia is less feasible, due to change in environment, to do the same... run around....place to run without shoes. (boom07)

It seems you're missing the point. This barefoot running movement and what me and coy were discussing, involved endurance, not strictly speed.

Why can humans only speculate??? Humans can do much more than just speculate. Give your fellow homo genus kin some credit. We're pretty god-@#%* smart.

 

[tricky]

Question, I'm going to start the transition to barefoot/minimal running. Should I be concentrating on landing on my toes as opposed to the typical heel strike? I currently don't have a ton of heel strike but I'm wondering if it's just a matter of running on my toes all the time. Will my feet and body over time just naturally move from landing on my heel/mid-foot to eventually landing and pushing off with my fore foot?

 

[ucMP3]

You'll want to stay off you're heels. Run on the balls of your feet primarily. It will make your calves and feet very sore at first, but it will be worth it. You're calves will be cut before long. Running on your heels causes a lot of tension in your joints and is not good for them. Not to mention its a waste of energy transferring all that energy and weight from heel to toe.

 

[coyfish]

Sounds like ya'll are all over it, but we must also remember we (humans) can only speculate, and no one is a 100% sure if it takes a couple of generations or centuries (maybe both depending on aspect) to Evolve, adapt.... what ever the case maybe.

Anywho, running.... until Usain Bolt, WE (USA) were the fastest runners (with shoes on)... hmmmm how does this play into the lack of shoes & Evolution scenario? (Even though he is a shoe wearer too).

I would say like some posters mentioned... shoes are for protection. I ran around all my teenage life without shoes, and my feet were a lot stronger, but it was also easier to catch a stub toe, cut foot, or bruised foot when passing over something harder and strong then them. Of course this was in St.thomas United States Virgin Islands. Up here in Virginia is less feasible, due to change in environment, to do the same... run around....place to run without shoes. (boom07)

What do you mean no one is 100% sure how long it takes??? We are 100% sure how long it takes. We have gene mapping and can see exactly what genes people have. Im not talking about evolutionary adaption. Im talking about gene pools. The livelyhood of many of those african / mexican tribes was dependant on running which is why those genes ultimately proliferated. Thus today those tribes have been living amongst themselves just like their ancestors and retain many of those same common genes. It takes longer than a couple generations. IT takes at least 20+ generations of reproducing amongst the same gene pools. That is reproducing those genes that are more suited for their environment.


And we are talking about distance running, not sprinting. That has nothing to do with what im talking about. The tribes I previosly mentioned were conditioned for distance . . . not for sprinting. Not to mention in sprinting shoes are for traction. Support / protection is not a priority.

 

[coyfish]

You'll want to stay off you're heels. Run on the balls of your feet primarily. It will make your calves and feet very sore at first, but it will be worth it. You're calves will be cut before long. Running on your heels causes a lot of tension in your joints and is not good for them. Not to mention its a waste of energy transferring all that energy and weight from heel to toe.

For barefoot running I would agree but not for running with shoes.

 

[ucMP3]

Question, I'm going to start the transition to barefoot/minimal running. Should I be concentrating on landing on my toes as opposed to the typical heel strike? I currently don't have a ton of heel strike but I'm wondering if it's just a matter of running on my toes all the time. Will my feet and body over time just naturally move from landing on my heel/mid-foot to eventually landing and pushing off with my fore foot?

You'll want to stay off you're heels. Run on the balls of your feet primarily. It will make your calves and feet very sore at first, but it will be worth it. You're calves will be cut before long. Running on your heels causes a lot of tension in your joints and is not good for them. Not to mention its a waste of energy transferring all that energy and weight from heel to toe.

For barefoot running I would agree but not for running with shoes.

He wasn't talking about running with shoes.

And personally, I still try to run on my heels (even if jogging) as little as possible. I just don't like it, and my calves and quads seem to respond much better to running on the balls of my feet as compared to on the heels.

 

[Nuffflavor]

What do you mean no one is 100% sure how long it takes??? We are 100% sure how long it takes. We have gene mapping and can see exactly what genes people have. Im not talking about evolutionary adaption. Im talking about gene pools. The livelyhood of many of those african / mexican tribes was dependant on running which is why those genes ultimately proliferated. Thus today those tribes have been living amongst themselves just like their ancestors and retain many of those same common genes. It takes longer than a couple generations. IT takes at least 20+ generations of reproducing amongst the same gene pools. That is reproducing those genes that are more suited for their environment.


And we are talking about distance running, not sprinting. That has nothing to do with what im talking about. The tribes I previosly mentioned were conditioned for distance . . . not for sprinting. Not to mention in sprinting shoes are for traction. Support / protection is not a priority.

As far as I have learned, we cannot read into an actual gene that will say "yeah you will be long winded and be able to run barefoot for long distances". We can say Ok Your father has red hair and your mother has black hair so you have a 50% chance to get either hair color (for example). No one can be 100% sure of which trait you will pick up from your parents/ancestors. Yes, we can be very close, but never 100 percent sure..... we can speculate. Also the environment and the character of that individual plays an important part in any physical scenario. You can have two brothers from the same parents.... one is fat and lazy while the other could be a long distance runner..... NEVER A 100% SURE WHO GOT WHAT GENES.

 

[LinuxRacr]

Sounds like ya'll are all over it, but we must also remember we (humans) can only speculate, and no one is a 100% sure if it takes a couple of generations or centuries (maybe both depending on aspect) to Evolve, adapt.... what ever the case maybe.

Anywho, running.... until Usain Bolt, WE (USA) were the fastest runners (with shoes on)... hmmmm how does this play into the lack of shoes & Evolution scenario? (Even though he is a shoe wearer too).

Let's not forget that a lot of the fastest runners are coming from Jamaica now. One of the things that I was informed of during the Olympics was that a lot of the children, of course, run around barefoot, which in turn strengthens the foot, and the legs at an early age.

 

[tricky]

So what about just walking barefoot in general. I've never really thought about it but is it best to not walk in the classic thought of "heel to toe, heel to toe" but instead we should be landing on our forefoot all together? Yes it's a stupid question but I have to ask.