Winter - Stability Control scare

[LukeP]

I'm used to driving cars where everything is left up to the driver. My old civic had nothing in the way of power anything but brakes - none of this ESC or TCS nonsense that is in modern cars.

It had rained and snowed on a cold day here recently, and I had to go out in the bad weather (we're just used to that here), and I was driving down a narrow road with cars on both sides. Being a well experienced cold-season driver, I always test my traction continiously because it changes from street to street. Blip on the throttle produced predictable sidestep in the front, so I knew to keep slow and pointed in the right direction should anything happen. I also frequently test braking to see how the car will react - however, as soon as I touched the brakes, the entire ECS system went into a convulsive seizure.

The slight sideways jut that my brake test induced would have been easy to correct in my old, non intrusive civic. Just go off the brakes and point in the right direction. Something I did constantly in the winter to keep myself away of whats under my tires. In the MS3, it caused the ECS system to get confused, thinking I was performing some kind of hot lap on a dirt track - it applied brakes to places where I didn't want them, in a vain and unnecessary attempt to straighten out the car. It kept overcorrection on itself, without my foot on the brakes at all, which caused the car to continously slide sideways, brakes chattering as each corner got out of line, and my car was STRAFING towards precariously parked cars on the side of the road.

All I could do is point the wheels and close my eyes as the computer almost cost me several points on my license and the high price of an insurance deductable. Luckily, a few inches from disaster the system smarted up and just let the car (and it's breathless driver) take over.

I'll be sure to drive everywhere with the system manually disabled from now on, but I'll be sure to warn other MS3 owners of potential and DANGEROUS consequences of the ECS system. Why the hell do they put these things in cars? They seem like a lawsuit waiting to happen to me. It probably happens in all modern cars now, but the MS3 is the first modern car I own, or have driven under such conditions.

 

[mazdaspeedster3]

Are you serious with this thread? Where in the world do you live and how much snow ice were you encountering? also, are you still running stockers and in this type of condition for the first time? Being from Michigan and dealing with above average nasty winters the Speed has been nothing but awesome (considering my second car is an AWD CX7) with all season tires. I would consider your "testing" of the conditions to be unsafe as the results are unpredictable and unecesary. You would know if you were not in control and YOU seem to have put the car in that situation, not the car. It was managing the situation ok until your test.

 

[martin_nj]

for real winter driving disabling the ABS will actually shorten your stopping distances...

 

[CHIEFSMS3]

I would question your "cold season driving experience" from the way that you check traction. By the way the MS3 does have a bit more HP and torque than your old civic which might account for some of the difference. I also am wondering if you are running the stock tires which should not be used in snowy conditions. If you decide to continue to drive the same way without traction control then good luck. I have never had a similar experience with my MS3. Although I do know enough to put my all-season tires on when the weather gets below 40 degrees and /or snows. You really might want to re-think your method of checking traction though, since yours is not safe for you or other drivers.

 

[jred321]

i hate electronic nannies too. i find it's sometimes hard to predict what they're going to do which makes it difficult to control the car or react to a situation since your reaction has to take into account how the computer will react. i much prefer a mechanical LSD and normal ABS to a traction control system even if it technically performs worse just because of the predictability it offers

that said my guess is your problem was more that you had no traction than that the computer was trying to correct things. if you have no traction no sort of computer or human wizardry is going to help. put some winters on and then try the same thing. i bet the computer will be able to identify where some traction is and react appropriately

 

[LukeP]

I've been driving in heavy snowfall saskatchewan winters (5-6 months of knee deep snow and -30 C conditions), cutting my teeth with my first driving experiences at 14 in the middle of january. I have been driving day in day out for over 11 years since I got my license. I have never been at fault in an accident, of which I've only been in one, which was one lady who decided to drive into me with her RAV4 in gridlock.

I know what I'm doing.

And not testing your traction in icy conditions is like driving blindfolded. If you could be doing 30 mph safely on one road, while another one might only be safe at 10 mph. Anyone not testing their traction clearly has never driven in extremely poor conditions - I've passed countless cars in the ditch from people going 60 mph in unsafe conditions, only realizing they are going too fast when they fly off the road.

Anyways, I didn't expect to be giving winter driving lessons, my point is that ECS can get confused very easily, and with winter coming I wanted to let people know to be careful - you might think you're controlling your vehicle in an emergency or sudden ice situation, when the computers might be taking it from you.

And yes this was on stock tires - but thats irrelevant. I have winters in my shed - but I knew it was going to go back to warm weather immediately after, so no sense switch out rims for 24 hours of driving. I was midly curious to see how the Potenzas and TCS would deal with non-ideal conditions. I was surprised how well the car could go (probably due to the limited slip diff) but I was equally surpised at how poorly it could stop. Literally football field lengths from 10 mph.

I certainly wouldnt recommended this experiment to anyone with poor conditions driving experience. But I knew what I was getting into. Just didn't expect the ESC to try and kill me.

 

[jred321]

did you try accelerating to straighten yourself out or did you just sit on the brakes?


i don't agree that being on stock tires is irrelevant. if the tires don't have any traction the system should freak out because there's nothing it can do nor is there anything you could do if the system was not there to stop yourself. i think your experience was more indicative of what happens when you try to use summer tires in the snow/sleet than the electronic nannies causing you to stay sideways

 

[LukeP]

did you try accelerating to straighten yourself out or did you just sit on the brakes?


i don't agree that being on stock tires is irrelevant. if the tires don't have any traction the system should freak out because there's nothing it can do nor is there anything you could do if the system was not there to stop yourself. i think your experience was more indicative of what happens when you try to use summer tires in the snow/sleet moreso than the electronic nannies causing you to stay sideways

"without my foot on the brakes at all"

ECS will try to stabilize the car on any anglular change, regardless of what you're doing with your feet.

Snow and sleet is one thing, sheet ice is another. On that day, even my buddy in his corsica on all seasons couldnt make a stop light at 120 feet away at 20mph. It was that bad. Sheet ice makes your rubber compound choices moot - nothing will help you on a roadway skating rink. Its what happens when snow falls, melts, freezes, and melts again into a perfect glass-like smooth frictionless surface, then is dusted in snow again to conceal it. I've driven on sheet ice in plenty of old vehicles, and they always behave predictably. My problem is that ECS applies brakes for you EVEN IF YOU'RE NOT APPLYING THEM.

On the same day, another friend of mine - whom had an RWD ECS-equipped car - was taking a turn and had the tail out a little bit and the ECS system stalled his car in the middle of the intersection. It got cofused and locked up all four tires, bypassing the ABS system completely. ECS was never designed with sheet ice conditions in mind, and should have probably been disabled if I really thought about it.

Here's a link to the news headline about the driving conditions that day: http://www.canada.com/reginaleaderpost/news/story.html?id=311ff1f1-445f-4be8-be50-dffe3945ccea

I know I know, I probably should not have been out driving that day, but I'm 100% confident in my ability to keep the car from hitting something. I'm 0% confident in the ECS's brain trying to do that for me in conditions it was never designed for.

Maybe its old hat to most people that are used to new cars to turn off ECS for winter. It might even be in the MS3 manual! It's totally new to me.

If this thread helps save even one MS3 from a computer-generated mishap, then its worth it.

 

[ecniemann]

for real winter driving disabling the ABS will actually shorten your stopping distances...

Where do you get this info from? Any tests/studies?

that said my guess is your problem was more that you had no traction than that the computer was trying to correct things. if you have no traction no sort of computer or human wizardry is going to help. put some winters on and then try the same thing. i bet the computer will be able to identify where some traction is and react appropriately

+1, can't do anything without traction.

And yes this was on stock tires - but thats irrelevant. I have winters in my shed - but I knew it was going to go back to warm weather immediately after, so no sense switch out rims for 24 hours of driving. I was midly curious to see how the Potenzas and TCS would deal with non-ideal conditions. I was surprised how well the car could go (probably due to the limited slip diff) but I was equally surpised at how poorly it could stop. Literally football field lengths from 10 mph.

I have no problem with you testing the road, I do as well, but you are crazy to drive in those conditions with summer tires. I drove 1 winter in those and you are not exaggerating that it takes approx 100 yards to stop. You will not stop at all on glare ice. You need the right gear; snow tires, and/or studs. My advice is if you do not want to change the tires this early in the season, then do not go out at all unless 100% necessary (ie. get home if at work, go to hospital, etc.)

i don't agree that being on stock tires is irrelevant. if the tires don't have any traction the system should freak out because there's nothing it can do nor is there anything you could do if the system was not there to stop yourself. i think your experience was more indicative of what happens when you try to use summer tires in the snow/sleet than the electronic nannies causing you to stay sideways

Again, +1. These systems sometimes make things more complicated, but overall they help more than they hurt. No system is designed to have summer tires grip on ice. Luckily you can disable this if you so choose with the start-up hack (push DSC 3-5 sec while starting car).

 

[happy and angry]

for real winter driving disabling the ABS will actually shorten your stopping distances...

... at the cost of being able to steer. I think I can deal with only getting 95% of my ideal stopping distance if I can avoid hazards, thanks.

 

[happy and angry]

And yes this was on stock tires - but thats irrelevant.

I am going to address most of your posts in one, and I'm only going to highlight this one particularly "brilliant" little comment.

First, let's back up. You feel the ECS got in the way of your driving. I know many people feel this way, but the truth of the matter is that there are very few (read, almost no) drivers that can correct for traction issues faster and without over-correcting in real time than your computer can. Odds are the computer was doing everything exactly right, but the tires, those lovely stock summer tires, did not provide enough traction for any of the corrections to work. These tires are not meant for snow and ice or temperatures below about 7*C. Their traction is bad, and no one on these forums should tempt fate by running them in snow.

I also take issue with your claims of being a good driver in snow. I'm sure you've driven in a lot of hairy conditions, but you don't sound like you know what you're talking about at all. No one in their right mind tests traction in bad conditions on the road. You test your vehicle's handling in an empty parking lot, get used to how it handles when grip is compromised, and then drive to visible conditions in traffic. You do not tempt fate with losing grip on the road (especially not in summer tires, my lord, what were you thinking?). It is HARDER to regain traction once it is compromised than it is lose traction when you have it on snow and ice (and other surfaces). Drive to conditions, drive slower, and this "verification of traction by experimentation" thing you have going on becomes irrelevant. You are better served by driving cautiously than you are by testing your grip, finding it absent, and subsequently trying to regain control of your vehicle in conditions you have no control over and which may not allow you to regain it.

 

[LukeP]

I am going to address most of your posts in one

Alright.

the truth of the matter is that there are very few (read, almost no) drivers that can correct for traction issues faster and without over-correcting in real time than your computer can

Fair enough, but applying the brakes suddenly to the car, in pure ice conditions, is a catastrophe. A car should never suddenly or urgently apply brakes to a car in poor conditions, as this will upset the car's balance. It is dangerous. ECS didn't know what to do in both cases, and nearly caused an accident in both cases. If my friend's car was stalled on him by the computer, in the middle of an intersection, and someone slid into him, who would be to blame?

These tires are not meant for snow and ice or temperatures below about 7*C. Their traction is bad, and no one on these forums should tempt fate by running them in snow

Absolutely. No one should. However, no system should ever be a danger to the driver when it equipped on the car, regardless of what kind of tires he or she has. In the case of pure a pure ice slick, all but most knobby tires with giant spikes coming out of them would work.

you don't sound like you know what you're talking about at all. No one in their right mind tests traction in bad conditions on the road.

Enjoy the ditch. I'll wave to you while I pass by.

You test your vehicle's handling in an empty parking lot, get used to how it handles when grip is compromised, and then drive to visible conditions in traffic. You do not tempt fate with losing grip on the road (especially not in summer tires, my lord, what were you thinking?).

Obviously I'm posting in vain here. Clearly no one lives in a real cold weather climate. Conditions are not consistent everywhere you go. If you so much as lane change without knowing if the middle line is slicker that the lanes, you'll end up backwards. You have to pay attention to subtle things, like which direction the torque steers the car - that tells you under which wheel there is the most ice buildup, the dynamics how the traction returns, how loose the steering play is. I'm not talking about full on floor brake traction testing - slight tap on the brake pedal. If the car slows down, you know you're good. If the car juts sideways, you konw you're in a world of s***.

I've avoid several rear end accidents by demonstrating to the people behind me that it is in fact not safe to be following as close as they are. A slight tap, cocks the car a bit, the guy behind me would back waaayyy off. When I was going to university, I once had someone slide past me backwards on the highway. I lolled. Hey that might be you next time!

Drive to conditions, drive slower, and this "verification of traction by experimentation" thing you have going on becomes irrelevant.

"Driving to conditions" changes ever foot, every inch, especially when the temperature hovers at the just-below-freezing mark. Contaminated water won't quite freeze, giving the illusion of just wet road. However there may be patches of "black ice" that only gives its location away by a slight sheen on the road. This could be mistaken for wetness, and judging by the number of people on their roof on the side of the road every year, it clearly is. Perhaps some foresight on these people's behalf could have prevented such single vehicle accidents - maybe "checking" how slippery it is before being forced into an emergency situation.

Maybe I should write a book on bad weather driving. Clearly some people need education.

In any case, my driving habits are COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC here. This thread I created for one purpose only. Here is my point.

The Electronic Stability Control system, as equipped on many modern vehicles, suddenly applied the brakes to my car without me using the brake pedal. This happened on two completely different cars of two completely different makes. Both drivers are new to ESC. Both drivers have similar (multi-decade) experience in poor, icy conditions. Both agree ESC created a dangerous situation from normal driving.

People who just bought an MS3 whom have never driven an ESC-equipped car before; be careful as ESC may apply the brakes suddenly and abruptly in poor conditions, without you touching the brake pedal.

Drive safe!

 

[jred321]

People who just bought an MS3 whom have never driven an ESC-equipped car before; be careful as ESC may apply the brakes suddenly and abruptly in poor conditions, without you touching the brake pedal.

everyone else's point is that the "poor conditions" were caused by your tire selection in combination with the actual road conditions, not just the road conditions as you seem to think. you then "tested" your brakes causing you to go into a skid that was uncorrectable due to the fact that you had NO traction (not little traction like you've likely experienced in the past, NONE) as a result of your tire choice and the road conditions - something that letting up on the brakes would NOT have corrected as you have experienced in cars past. to change direction from sideways to straight you NEED friction. you didn't have any. ESC was trying to find some to correct you but couldn't find enough.

imagine skating quick on a hockey rink and then sliding on your stomach. will paddling with your arms change your direction? that's the situation you were faced with by putting your summer tires into icy conditions. get yourself feet first on that hockey rink though and use your blades to dig into the ice, thus creating friction, and you can change direction

have you tried your experiment in non-ESC cars with summer-only tires on them before or was it typically on an all season or winter?

also fwiw next time try accelerating if you get sideways but make sure your tires are pointed in the direction you want to go. it will pull you out of a slide if your front tires can gain traction. it's what AWD people do when they start to slide though it works better for them because they have 4 wheels fighting for traction and one will find some. won't be as effective with FWD but will still work. RWD would end badly

could also do you some good to consider that other people here could have as much if not more experience in winter driving than you and listening to what they say instead of just saying they're wrong might teach you something

additionally this car has been out for 2+ years. you're not the first to face these conditions in it. i've heard numerous compliments on the car's winter handling in fact. when properly equipped, of course

 

[NiteRunner]

Alright.

Obviously I'm posting in vain here. Clearly no one lives in a real cold weather climate. Conditions are not consistent everywhere you go.

In any case, my driving habits are COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC here. This thread I created for one purpose only. Here is my point.

People who just bought an MS3 whom have never driven an ESC-equipped car before; be careful as ESC may apply the brakes suddenly and abruptly in poor conditions, without you touching the brake pedal.

Drive safe!

Don't fret Luke, your words are not lost on all. There are some that also know how to drive in the poorest conditions, (but very few).
I've been in a similar situation in my old BMW 318 is. I was hit with an unexpected snow storm on a mountain freeway. It became necessary to drive beyond a normal safe speed up hill, as without the extra momentum I would have lost traction with my summer tires and possibly froze to death over night at the bottom.

Personally I prefer a little tap on the gas to check traction, as it keeps with the whole "object in motion" thing, but I agree that you must check your available traction frequently when it is in question.

Driving in these conditions might not be recommended or necessary, (except in my case), but they are not impossible. Hell I don't know how those MotoGP guys burn out around a corner without crashing, doesn't mean it can't be done.

Anyway, thank you for the warning.
Please PM me about the traction defeat.

PS, don't let the location fool you, I just moved to FL.

 

[MS3Buckeye]

When the ECS system engages and brakes certain wheels, it is expecting a certain result. With summer tires in the situation you described, it is very likely the computer did not get the result it was looking for.

I would predict that had you had proper tires on your vehicle, the ECS would have improved your situation and not worsened it.

For every situation you had with the ECS, I'm sure there were hundreds of others who were saved or helped by the system. Especially properly outfitted vehicles.

EDIT: What I'm trying to say is blaming the ECS for creating a bad situation when you don't give it proper tools to do its job (the way it thinks it can) is not fair to the ECS system.

 

[MicaSp33d]

summer tires are a softer compound which will be stiff as ice in the snow most likely why you broke traction. Stability control will detect yaw and then try to correct itself with braking, you probably lost traction on all four wheels at different points it was trying to correct at one point, then loses traction after trying to correct itself and tries to compensate again.

 

[mo4130]

im gonna cut to the chase, if its a ******* ice rink dont go out. nothing short of studds is going to help.

 

[Olestra]

I see so many things wrong with this thread.
I'm sorry LukeP but your ego is very much in the way here. You say you never applied the brakes,

The Electronic Stability Control system, as equipped on many modern vehicles, suddenly applied the brakes to my car without me using the brake pedal.

yet your first post says you tapped the brakes as a test which created a catastrophe. You applied brakes with summer tires on ice and expected to recover using your experience in driving in snow. As jred pointed out you had no traction so no matter what you did, you were not going to save yourself. I'd consider it luck you were able to avoid hitting the cars. When you're on ice, the best thing to do is to drive as straight as possible in the intended direction and NEVER hit the brakes until your off the patch. I'm surprised you did your test on a narrow street with cars on both sides. That doesn't show experience. Use your test on an open road or parking lot and only to give you a general idea.

You also say nothing will help you short of spikes. Sure spikes would be ideal but winter tires are proven to shorten stopping distances and provide optimal traction. Summer tires would send you flying sideways where winter tires would gain the traction needed to keep straight. I'm sure you know this because you say you have a set waiting at home. What you may not know is even if it's not snowing out, you should have your winters on. Having your summer tires on at anything under 10*C is an accident waiting to happen, no matter what technology have in your car.

Conditions are not consistent everywhere you go. If you so much as lane change without knowing if the middle line is slicker that the lanes, you'll end up backwards. You have to pay attention to subtle things, like which direction the torque steers the car - that tells you under which wheel there is the most ice buildup, the dynamics how the traction returns, how loose the steering play is. I'm not talking about full on floor brake traction testing - slight tap on the brake pedal. If the car slows down, you know you're good. If the car juts sideways, you konw you're in a world of s***.

You can never predict what the road is going to be like even with your little tests. It's possible you might do your test, which will give you a false sense of confidence in traction and the next second you'll hit black ice.
When you drive in winter conditions, you should drive as the conditions permit. The unpredictability should be taken care of by proper tires. It's possible you can drive over patches of ice on winter tires and never even realize it because you had traction the whole time.

In addition, the computer probably did several calculations and performed it's action before you even realized you were going sideways.

The point of all this is, you were on summer tires, you drove on ice, tried your "test" and then was sent sideways. Now you're blaming ESC. I hope you have your winter tires on already.

 

[CHIEFSMS3]

I see so many things wrong with this thread.
I'm sorry LukeP but your ego is very much in the way here.

I would have to agree 1000%.

Please don't come on here and act like an expert "cold-season driver"
when you are making noob driver mistakes.

Everyone needs to understand that you need to get those summer tires off when the temps get around 40 degrees and put on winter tires or at least all-season tires dependent on where you live.

This will allow the DSC to function the way it was designed to. The DSC is quicker and smarter than all but a very small handful of professional drivers.

Most who claim to be a better driver in winter conditions than the DSC are sadly fooling themselves and endangering other drivers.

 

[ecniemann]

When the ECS system engages and brakes certain wheels, it is expecting a certain result. With summer tires in the situation you described, it is very likely the computer did not get the result it was looking for.

I would predict that had you had proper tires on your vehicle, the ECS would have improved your situation and not worsened it.

For every situation you had with the ECS, I'm sure there were hundreds of others who were saved or helped by the system. Especially properly outfitted vehicles.

EDIT: What I'm trying to say is blaming the ECS for creating a bad situation when you don't give it proper tools to do its job (the way it thinks it can) is not fair to the ECS system.

Exactly! Luke, I feel for you and your disappointment compounded by almost wrecking your new car, but as already said, ANY system can go bad under the perfect conditions. Look how many airline crashes have been caused by "pilot error" despite all the safety features. The closest to your situation that I can recall is the "rudder issue" that caused a plane to crash as the pilot was overusing the rudder to correct for conditions when the computer was fighting the pilot in the "correct" manner. The point is if the pilot had not fought back, the plane would not have crashed. Sometimes perception under stress causes panic moves that are not ideal.