PG Pump Installed

[ATE BALLER]

The intank pushes fuel to the camdriven pump, which then pressurizes it and feeds the fuel into the motor. The camdriven pump cant suck fuel from a line from the tank, it needs to have a pump push the fuel to the CDFP/motor from the tank.

cool

yup. but i can tell you for sure that if the intank pump ever does need to be replaced (it probably will, but not for anybody's uses as of right now) a walboro 255lph inline will do the job, and will be a much easier install.

indeed this is true too

conclusion: i dont think the intank pump NEEDS to be replaced, but it doesn't hurt anything in doing so. a 255lph walboro inline can be had for about $150. that doesn't hit the wallet too bad and does indeed add more security, which is never a bad thing.

either way, i still dont think it needs it and won't be upgrading it. i would suggest it to the gt35r guys, if they ever arise.

Yes, thank you, exactly! At least you are seeing the point I'm tying to get accross. When people start pushing close to 500hp or more, no matter how cool the CDFP you have on the car is, the in-tank pump will not be able to provide the fuel required. I have a feeling that with motors being built and alot of the odds and ends getting panned out, we're going to start seeing some crazy numbers being put down, both on the track and on the dyno.

 

[mrlilguy157]

Yes, thank you, exactly! At least you are seeing the point I'm tying to get accross. When people start pushing close to 500hp or more, no matter how cool the CDFP you have on the car is, the in-tank pump will not be able to provide the fuel required. I have a feeling that with motors being built and alot of the odds and ends getting panned out, we're going to start seeing some crazy numbers being put down, both on the track and on the dyno.

agreed. i'm glad you and i could both contribute to the community, PG and CP-E for the fueling solution.

 

[redrocketz]

You can NOT compress a liquid you can only pressurize it. if your theory is correct about compressing liquids then why do so many people throw rods through the side of the block when water gets in the engine? it must be because I am an ill informed moron that doesn't know a damn thing about my profession.

And why don't you man up and buy the CDFP if you think it is going to make your fuel pump soo much better... I have looked at these pumps extensively and have look up how they work quite a bit. I have these cars at my disposal pretty much but until I don't have to use heat guns and knives to install a ghetto rigged intank pump just to possibly gain a few psi on the low end why waste my time.

And this is my personal opinion so take this as you may but I would NEVER start pushing s*** loads more fuel into an untuned vehicle all it will do in the loong run is either kill your gas mileage or wash your engine...

 

[laloosh]

(peep)

 

[fourthmeal]

Its all about bottlenecks, you guys. The CDFP is certainly a bottleneck, and Laloosh uncorked that issue REAL quick. BRAVO!

Too many people trying to play "King of the Hill" here...lets just get to answers we can all use.

 

[AutoXRacer]

OK, I started reading the thread and then gave up on page 10...

From what I read, the PG pump upgrade is useless on a stock car with MS CAI...? When does this PG pump mod come in handy? When increasing boost 1, 2, 3 psi...(with full stock exhaust)?

For my personal application, I plan on Xede and thats pretty much it; maybe a new TMIC...along with my MS CAI. I would like to tune the Xede for maximum efficiency while maintaining reliability...so I guess 2-3 LBS of boost over stock...if thats safe. Will the fuel pump come in handy then? Or does it really come down to A/F ratios...?

I'm assuming laloosh didn't upgrade his fuel pump do to fuel leaning out... I'm assuming he did it just becuase...another upgrade?

 

[laloosh]

i didnt uncork s***, i just bought a part, i had zero invovlment in this or any pump.....lol just to make things clear

 

[laloosh]

i upgraded my pump because with only i/tbe my car was fuel cutting and fuel pressure was dropping, meaning the car couldnt get the fuel the ecu wanted.

 

[fourthmeal]

I didn't intend to say that you "uncorked" anything on your own, but your standback data shows the proof and that's what I'm saying. I like the results and look forward to seeing a true solution that other forum members can pursue.

I just wish I had the funds and ability to stay on the cutting edge of innovation like you guys are. Its just not happening at the moment, though. Maybe when I open my own shop as planned in a year.

 

[MS3-oholic]

Adding a second in-tank pump or even replacing the stock on with a higher flowing on will not make a difference in this car. As stated above, the in-tank pumps only purpose is to send fuel from the tank to the CDFP, which i does in sufficcient volume.

The problem is the CDFPs ability to pressurize the fluel high enough at the volume being demanded by the motor. I worked in a pneumatic and hydraulic repair shop for 4 years and the priciple behind the CDFP is the same as an air or hydraulic pump.

Example: A hydraulic pump may have a max operating pressure of 10,000 psi, but that does'nt mean that it can flow its max volume of fluid at that pressure. The pump can flow 5 gallons a minute at 2,000 psi but will only flow 1 gallon a minute at 10,000 psi.

An air pump can flow 10 CFM at 100 psi, but only 2 CFM at 300 psi.

This is proven by datalogs provided by various members. As the volume demand increases, the pump cannot pressurize the volume to max pressure quickly enough and pressure starts to drop, which is the problem. The pump is still flowing the volume of fuel being damanded by the engine, but not at the correct pressure, so the throttle plate closes decreasing power.

The new internals for the CDFP simply increases the volume the pump is able flow at max pressure. Since datalogs with the CDFP installed shows max pressure holding steady all the way to redline, the in-tank pump, is as of right now, adequate. Once you are heavily modded and the pressure begins to drop or other fueling issues arrive with the upgraded CDFP installed, then maybe an in-tank pump would be the next step.

Hope this makes sense and didn't bore you.

 

[zoom^3]

great explanation.^^

 

[redrocketz]

From what I read, the PG pump upgrade is useless on a stock car with MS CAI...? When does this PG pump mod come in handy? When increasing boost 1, 2, 3 psi...(with full stock exhaust)?

there is no proof it is useless on a stock car. certain people believe it would be useless because a standback doing a data log on an ms3 with an intake shows no fuel pressure loss. however, it also shows no fuel pressure increase while load, boost and RPM increase and offers no insight as to what will happen if the car does have more available fuel pressure from a pump like this, even in closer to stock form. mrlilguy's car is closer to stock form than laloosh's is IMHO, and showed improvements which he has oft talked about.

 

[laloosh]

I dont know why people think they need to be heavily modified to buy this pump. I have two mods. I/TBE, running stock boost in cold temps the car would cut out.

 

[ATE BALLER]

Same here, and now it doesn't, even with higher boost. I didn't get fuel cut on my lunch break today with the E-01 set to 19psi either btw. If an in-tank fuel pump does nothing, then why is this happening? If anyone knowswhy it would, or could, please tell me. I want to know if it could be a bad thing, however I doubt it because it feels great to drive in the cold now, like it should. Otherwise, I'm going to stay inclined to believe that upgrading the in-tank fuel pump is a useful thing to do.

 

[driver311]

Same here, and now it doesn't, even with higher boost. I didn't get fuel cut on my lunch break today with the E-01 set to 19psi either btw. If an in-tank fuel pump does nothing, then why is this happening? If anyone knowswhy it would, or could, please tell me. I want to know if it could be a bad thing, however I doubt it because it feels great to drive in the cold now, like it should. Otherwise, I'm going to stay inclined to believe that upgrading the in-tank fuel pump is a useful thing to do.

Everything that everyone has stated above sounds logical. So explain why this guys problems were fixed with an intank pump? Dont need any data logging to tell you that its not fuel cutting anymore.

 

[ATE BALLER]

And guess what... I just did it again on the way home, though I brought it back down to 18 psi for the turbo's sake, but still. I usually would be getting a fuel cut pushing any more than right around 15psi at these temperatures, especially without the ATP bce on there. Logically speaking, I should be. I don't know why I'm not, but I'm not. All I did is a common thing people do when they need more fuel. Dropped in a Walbro, drilled some holes in the bucket (it doesn't seem like it can hold enough to keep up with with too much of a continueous load at the Walbro's rates), and added 4 baffels in the tank. All together, it took a week of casual work. I've done it before, so I figured "what the hell". It can't hurt anything AFAIK. I'm glad I did, and I'm happy with the results thus far. I think you guys have a little bit more research to do before you go calling me a liar.

Oh yeah, Redrocketz, don't worry. I will be picking up a CDFP first thing in January. Not sure whose yet, but I'm sure there'll be alot of data out by then. That's when I get my bonus, and that'll give me time to run my fuel lines and find a good spot to put my surge tank that won't be in the way of what's to come. You missed the point of the comment you were refering to, though. My point was that since YOU are the one calling BS on me, the burden is on YOU to prove me wrong. You have the equipment to actually test what is going on, I don't. So that's in your court now. If you will actually do this testing, I will GIVE you guys the stock pump to use. Just show what the flow rates are for the stock pump vs. whatever you have on hand that is comparible to the Walbro, then run the lines of each one seperately to a benched CDFP, and test it's values for rate, volume, and pressure. Probably would take less than an hour. That's all I'm suggesting, cause I'm gonna stand by this thing until I hit fuel cut during one of the usual conditions.

 

[chriscecc914]

I see it like this: Mostly everyone is running a stock motor.

Point 1: The CDFP is a bottleneck for the in-tank fuel pump.
Point 2: Only Replace the in-tank and you still have a bottleneck.
Point 3: Only Replace the CDFP and you can run as much power as the stock internals can handle.
Point 4: Replace both pumps and waste your money because you wont need that much fuel unless your running a significant amount of power which will cause the stock internals to go.

I only find that replacing the intank would be useful if you plan on going forged motor, big turbo, big horsepower. Although, thank you ate baller for testing this out for us for future research.

 

[Haltech]

Everything that everyone has stated above sounds logical. So explain why this guys problems were fixed with an intank pump? Dont need any data logging to tell you that its not fuel cutting anymore.

What makes you think he even had a problem. Based on his attitude, i think the guy has " other issues " and went the wrong direction with a solution like so many others do on various cars. There's ALWAYS a handful on every forum.

 

[Haltech]

I see it like this: Mostly everyone is running a stock motor.

Point 1: The CDFP is a bottleneck for the in-tank fuel pump.
Point 2: Only Replace the in-tank and you still have a bottleneck.
Point 3: Only Replace the CDFP and you can run as much power as the stock internals can handle.
Point 4: Replace both pumps and waste your money because you wont need that much fuel unless your running a significant amount of power which will cause the stock internals to go.

I only find that replacing the intank would be useful if you plan on going forged motor, big turbo, big horsepower. Although, thank you ate baller for testing this out for us for future research.

Im taking the stock shortblock as far as its going to go in 2008. I have money set aside for the " Haltech DISI Disaster Fund " so stay tuned.

 

[driver311]

What makes you think he even had a problem. Based on his attitude, i think the guy has " other issues " and went the wrong direction with a solution like so many others do on various cars. There's ALWAYS a handful on every forum.

I thought he said he was having fuel cut PROBLEMS, and when he installed the pump they went away. Did I read wrong? Im not defending the guy in any way but if it worked it worked!!!!!Someone just prove him wrong if your so sure. I dont know s***, so Im not gonna go either way. LOL