PG Pump Installed

[Jays07MS3]

The simple answer is that it wouldn't.
Your datalog proves it.

Well part of the reason I ask is because of Ken's response in the "official" thread. I would just like to see some datalogs to verify everything and actually see exactly how the CDFP is smoothing out the throttle plate. And it would be nice for those of us with basically stock cars to know whether or not this pump is worth getting before some other mods.

Ken, how will this mod work on a somewhat stock car? IE: simple bolt ons, no turbo upgrade.
Since it seems that the throttle plate starts to close arount 5-5.5k on stock cars, would the instalation of this help extend the power of guys running just a CAI and exhaust upgrade?

Thanks

BTW: Got the gasket!

initially what was seen was a smoother and more consistent curve towards redline and less helter skelter action from the throttle plate. i am sure there would be drivability improvements from having more fuel on tap, moreso though for people wanting to increase boost.

 

[matsuda]

Well part of the reason I ask is because of Ken's response in the "official" thread. I would just like to see some datalogs to verify everything and actually see exactly how the CDFP is smoothing out the throttle plate. And it would be nice for those of us with basically stock cars to know whether or not this pump is worth getting before some other mods.

Keep in mind that laloosh has a CPE Standback which is controlling the fuel pressure whereas it is normally controlled by the ECU.

If I am not mistaken, the Standback will vary the fuel pressure to control the A/F ratio in a much different manner than the stock ECU will.

It is apples and oranges.

Your datalogs prove that you have no issues whatsoever with fuel pressure.

 

[Captain KRM P5]

Well part of the reason I ask is because of Ken's response in the "official" thread. I would just like to see some datalogs to verify everything and actually see exactly how the CDFP is smoothing out the throttle plate. And it would be nice for those of us with basically stock cars to know whether or not this pump is worth getting before some other mods.

answered this for the most part above. like i said, if i had a stock or near stock ms3 with a standback on hand i would have no problem providing datalogs for that situation.

that said, i think spending the amount of money on a pump like this for people that want stock boost and stock vehicle is not the best use of one's money. $350 to $800 can likely be better spent on breathability modifications. the purpose of this pump was never to alleviate the throttle plate, it was to provide more fuel pressure. the perceived throttle plate activity shown on laloosh's car is a nice thing to see, but its not the purpose of having this pump. if all people are looking for is a throttle plate solution, i'm not going to say this is the best option.

 

[Captain KRM P5]

Keep in mind that laloosh has a CPE Standback which is controlling the fuel pressure whereas it is normally controlled by the ECU.

It is apples and oranges.

the standback was zeroed out for this run i believe, so it was controlling nothing. laloosh can correct me if thats not true. its a catch 22 - you cant datalog without a standback and if you have a standback suddenly its not an accurate measurement. a larger cam driven pump is not going to be brought back down to stock pressure by the stock ECU. thats not how the pump works. similar in vein to when you install larger injectors on a car. the stock ECU has no way to tell they are larger injectors, so its going to push more fuel per millisecond of time simply by virtue of being a larger injector. standback or not, there will be increased fuel pressure. but why you'd want fuel pressure and no ability or desire to take advantage of it solely for the possibility of a more open throttle doesn't make sense - to me anyways - at the price.

 

[matsuda]

You can throw 4 pumps together in a series all you like to increase VOLUME, but it will NOT increase pressure. VOLUME is NOT the problem with the MS3 or MS6, its PRESSURE...

I think you have the terms VOLUME and PRESSURE mixed up.

 

[Fritch]

maybe laloosh can dyno with the bypass for the standback in for one time and then without it. Maybe at the strip as well. That way we could have somewhat of an idea what is going on at stock boost levels in a car without an EMS

 

[Jays07MS3]

the standback was zeroed out for this run i believe, so it was controlling nothing. laloosh can correct me if thats not true. its a catch 22 - you cant datalog without a standback and if you have a standback suddenly its not an accurate measurement. a larger cam driven pump is not going to be brought back down to stock pressure by the stock ECU. thats not how the pump works. similar in vein to when you install larger injectors on a car. the stock ECU has no way to tell they are larger injectors, so its going to push more fuel per millisecond of time simply by virtue of being a larger injector. standback or not, there will be increased fuel pressure. but why you'd want fuel pressure and no ability or desire to take advantage of it solely for the possibility of a more open throttle doesn't make sense - to me anyways - at the price.

Thanks Ken for taking the time to explain it. And I, by no means, want to buy this pump but leave everything else stock. Trust me, I have the desire to take advantage of many different mods, but unfortunely just not the money . I'm just trying to get a feel for which mods I want to get and in which order so I can better budget my $$. This one seems to be a supporting mod which is nice, but I guess I won't be able to take advantage of it until I start upping the boost.

Thanks again.

 

[matsuda]

a larger cam driven pump is not going to be brought back down to stock pressure by the stock ECU. thats not how the pump works.

With all due respect, I find that hard to believe. Yes, the ECU has no way of knowing that a "larger" pump was installed so it will do what it always does:

It will regulate the fuel pressure by controlling the spill valve and using the fuel pressure sensor for feedback.

Considering that the new fuel pump has the same spill valve control mechanism, I can't imagine why the fuel pressure would change one bit on an otherwise stock MS3.

In fact, if the ECU were unable to control the fuel pressure properly (for example ~400 PSI at idle), it would create a whole new set of problems.

 

[udontknowjack]

any luck with my fuel pump ken?>

 

[matsuda]

the standback was zeroed out for this run i believe, so it was controlling nothing.

Regarding the Standback, this is a quote from the CPE website:

Both the air/fuel and timing tables are based on huge 30x30 tables for enhanced tuning resolution. Fueling changes can be accomplished by either scaling the MAF sensor output voltage, or by changing the high-pressure fuel pump duty cycle. This allows very fine changes to fueling, and is unique to the StandbackTM.

This implies that the Standback is directly controlling the HP fuel pump. That would be true even with the Standback tuning parameters "zeroed out".

 

[Captain KRM P5]

With all due respect, I find that hard to believe. Yes, the ECU has no way of knowing that a "larger" pump was installed so it will do what it always does:

It will regulate the fuel pressure by controlling the spill valve and using the fuel pressure sensor for feedback.

Considering that the new fuel pump has the same spill valve control mechanism, I can't imagine why the fuel pressure would change one bit on an otherwise stock MS3.

In fact, if the ECU were unable to control the fuel pressure properly (for example ~400 PSI at idle), it would create a whole new set of problems.

if the piston and bore is different (which it is), the spill valve alone will not account for that difference. and since the Standback is an interceptor - not a standalone, if the ECU was going to pull fuel in that manner and to that degree it would be attempting to do so with the Standback installed as well. since all Laloosh did was install the pump and drive the car, not make changes to the pressure map, we can ascertain that this is the case. if the ECU was seeing an overtly rich condition, it would alter injector timing before it altered anything else. the pump was installed on a mostly stock ms6 and similar things were experienced - more power to redline, less negative activity from the throttle plate, etc. the car did not have a standback so it is impossible to verify that outside my own word and the owner's good word for that particular car. the best way to try and do this is to have a standback and to zero it out, then datalog it.

yes, Jay's datalog of the more stock vehicle shows no falloff of fuel pressure at stock boost. if mazda had an ounce of sense, the car would not do that by design. what will this pump on the same car? until you have someone to datalog and back up what has already been claimed you cannot rule out the likelihood that there is going to some benefit from having more available pressure.

 

[Captain KRM P5]

Regarding the Standback, this is a quote from the CPE website:

Both the air/fuel and timing tables are based on huge 30x30 tables for enhanced tuning resolution. Fueling changes can be accomplished by either scaling the MAF sensor output voltage, or by changing the high-pressure fuel pump duty cycle. This allows very fine changes to fueling, and is unique to the StandbackTM.

This implies that the Standback is directly controlling the HP fuel pump. That would be true even with the Standback tuning parameters "zeroed out".

it does not imply that whatsoever. if an interceptor's values are zeroed out it will not make changes to what the stock ECU is doing. a zeroed out interceptor style EMS would make the car run as stock. this is how an interceptor based system works, period. and since Laloosh made no fuel tuning changes when he put the pump in the car, the point is moot from that standpoint as well. the standback is not magically going to decide on its own how much fuel pressure to run. the standback intercepts inputs from onboard sensors and changes those signals going to the stock ECU in order to make tuning changes, but only the changes that the user themselves is going to place into the unit.

 

[udontknowjack]

....?

 

[laloosh]

That data has very little meaning without knowing the conditions of exactly how is was obtained.

umm conditions. Car was floored, data was taken. /test conditions. Stock pump was 17psi PG pump was at 18psi.

Btw lol im not running nitrous. All the car has for the last time is a cpe intake a PG prototype turbo back exhaust with a vibrant cat in the dp, cpe ems, PG fuel pump. The car has other mods, like mm, bpv, springs, but that does not alter power.

 

[cherryspeed]

umm conditions. Car was floored, data was taken. /test conditions. Stock pump was 17psi PG pump was at 18psi.

Btw lol im not running nitrous. All the car has for the last time is a cpe intake a PG prototype turbo back exhaust with a vibrant cat in the dp, cpe ems, PG fuel pump. The car has other mods, like mm, bpv, springs, but that does not alter power.

A few random thoughts..
Let's stop referring to the drag times...to many variables.
Whether you believe this pump is the savior or not, it is clear that there are definitive advantages to running it if you have mods and want to maximize their potential.
Clearly the next month or so should prove very interesting once the dyno's start rolling in.
If I was doing it (again) I would do in this order:
Standback
I/C
TBE
Turbo manifold
Fuel pump
Big turbo

And for what it's worth I think the stock internals will do 350whp just fine, but only time will tell. Mod smart and there should be no problems.

 

[palerider]

Sweet. Vibrant cat in the downpipe.... all youve got is downpipe and a little more boost than me......and lol... maybe nitrous, Im still not convinced

I dont have the standback, but I'll put the pump on at my dyno shop and do before and afters.... the day I get it. I bet it will add HP... noticeable. This whole argument, is the same damn argument I heard before he trapped 111 on snow tires.

I think the damn thing HAS to affect a stock car. It probably would have added almost a second and probably 7-8 trap if hed run it with summer tires. He said he launched at "idle". (Laloosh can confirm)

I just dont think you can question the results because we dont "understand" how it works. Cobb, CPE, Bell..... they have all been trying to figure out the throttle on this car for over a year. I think were one day into stumbling into a partial cure. At this point we need Cobb or CPE to weigh in.

 

[laloosh]

If i had to do it again it would be
an intake - either cpe or cobb
Fuel Pump - Which ever floats your boat
TBE - Whichever floats your boat
Wait for something that is pnp and picks up stock a/f and knock
Followed by ic/exhaust manifold ect ect

 

[palerider]

A few random thoughts..
Let's stop referring to the drag times...to many variables.

As opposed to dynos I presume?!!? An experienced driver at a track would argue that the track is the ONLY true way to measure gains.... I would assume if given multiple runs.

And secondly.... the biggest variable was his damn tires. He improved his times on friggin snow tires. How the hell is this something that would warrant us throwing the times out as a measuring stick.

The fact that this was at the track compared to some bogus dyno is what gives it credibility.

 

[laloosh]

Sweet. Vibrant cat in the downpipe.... all youve got is downpipe and a little more boost than me......and lol... maybe nitrous, Im still not convinced

I dont have the standback, but I'll put the pump on at my dyno shop and do before and afters.... the day I get it. I bet it will add HP... noticeable. This whole argument, is the same damn argument I heard before he trapped 111 on snow tires.

I think the damn thing HAS to affect a stock car. It probably would have added almost a second and probably 7-8 trap if hed run it with summer tires. He said he launched at "idle". (Laloosh can confirm)

I just dont think you can question the results because we dont "understand" how it works. Cobb, CPE, Bell..... they have all been trying to figure out the throttle on this car for over a year. I think were one day into stumbling into a partial cure. At this point we need Cobb or CPE to weigh in.

lol im not running nitrous or meth or anything like that. If you want i can take a lil video of my car right now. From tires, to chunks of rubber on my fenders, my track number is still there cause i didnt have time to wash the car, ill pop the hood zoom in on my pos beat up stock intercooler, get up near the cpe intake and go up and down it looking for nozzles, folled by going tot he trubo and zoomin on the dp which has a cat in it. Teh only possible way these time could be messed with was either nitrous or meth, i dont have either. hell many memebers on this site saw my car in person, and have been to the track with me.

 

[laloosh]

A few random thoughts..
Let's stop referring to the drag times...to many variables.
QUOTE]

As opposed to dynos I presume?!!? An experienced driver at a track would argue that the track is the ONLY true way to measure gains.... I would assume if given multiple runs.

And secondly.... the biggest variable was his damn tires. He improved his times on friggin snow tires. How the hell is this something that would warrant us throwing the times out as a measuring stick.

The fact that this was at the track compared to some bogus dyno is what gives it credibility.

i couldnt agree more. Dynos suck, track numbers is where it as it. Not even the et, but trap speeds. To gain 5mph, you know its doing something right.