Steering wheel vibration with new wheels

whyandrew

Member
I guess this isnt really Mazda5 specific, but i am here anyway ... definitely need help!!


I just got a set of new wheels & tires from DiscountTire. I installed them on my Mazda5 and I noticed there was a bit of steering wheel vibration at highway speed. Had the front tire balance re-checked, but was told I need hub rings... which I kinda assumed not needed since it was shipped without, but silly me. I contacted DiscountTire and they sent me the hub rings.

So I re-installed the wheels with the hub rings, making sure the hub, bore were clean, everything fit snug no problem. But the steering wheel vibration now actually GOT WORSE noticeably!! (eek)
I already tried re-re-installing them to double-double check everything and still the same. Tonight I tried putting the original OEM wheels+tires on the front and NO vibration (well a very very tiny bit, but the tires may not be super balanced anyway), so my Mazda5 is not the source of the problem for sure. I have a 4-wheel alignment done just recently, and the new wheels+tires are supposedly Road-Force balanced.

I am at a lost here. What can be the problem!! Do I just get a bad bunch of wheels or what...
What else can I test, see or try to confirm where the problem is!

Any tips appreciated (shrug)
 
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Yeah I did, I wiped the hub surface and the lug nut studs fairly clean before re and re-re-installing the wheels. obviously not sparklingly shiny clean, but definitely nothing solid sticking to them.
 
Sounds like a defective wheel or tire to me. Did you rotate the rears to the front on the new set to see if you can isolate the shimmy to a particular wheel?
 
I have seen many problems with vibration over the years and most problems have been due to the technician balancing the wheels. Many of the general service techs in the tire places have very little experience with tires, let alone cars. I have worked with tire techs that came in and didn't know how to change oil, yet they are expected by end of week one to be mounting and balancing tires. Add in techs that have been around for years and don't want to use the machines, and you got problems. Also, the machines need calibration every so often, especially if it is a busy shop. The road force machines are very technical and expensive. If it isn't a big time chain, they probably don't have one. Plus again, the tech has to be able to use that specific setting.

1. Make sure that the wheels have been dual plane balanced. Look for weights on the inner and outer edges on the inside of the wheel.
2. Make sure the wheels aren't counter balanced, with weights opposite each other.
3. Make sure that there isn't an excessive amount our weight. Anything over a total of 2.50 ounces is excessive to me. This can indicate a problem in the tire or wheel. If that is the case, the problem can be solved on most occasions by rotating the tire on the wheel.
4. Before reinstalling the wheels check the hub mating surface between the rotor and hub, a dislodged piece of corrosion could cause the rotor to not sit flat when wheel is reinstalled. I know it happened to me. :(
5. Make sure the beveled edge of the hub ring is on the rotor surface. If not the wheel may not be sitting flat.

A quality technician will be able to solve almost any vibration issue. Good luck.
 
Read the Tire Bible

Knowledge is power (REALLY long read)!
http://www.carbibles.com/tyre_bible_pg2.html

Focus in on this section.

Coloured dots and stripes - whats that all about?

When you're looking for new tyres, you'll often see some coloured dots on the tyre sidewall, and bands of colour in the tread. These are all here for a reason, but it's more for the tyre fitter than for your benefit.
The dots on the sidewall typically denote unformity and weight. It's impossible to manufacture a tyre which is perfectly balanced and perfectly manufactured in the belts. As a result, all tyres have a point on the tread which is lighter than the rest of the tyre - a thin spot if you like. It's fractional - you'd never notice it unless you used tyre manufacturing equipment to find it, but its there. When the tyre is manufactured, this point is found and a coloured dot is put on the sidewall of the tyre corresponding to the light spot. Typically this is a yellow dot (although some manufacturers use different colours just to confuse us) and is known as the weight mark. Typically the yellow dot should end up aligned to the valve stem on your wheel and tyre combo. This is because you can help minimize the amount of weight needed to balance the tyre and wheel combo by mounting the tyre so that its light point is matched up with the wheel's heavy balance point. Every wheel has a valve stem which cannot be moved so that is considered to be the heavy balance point for the wheel. (Trivia side note : wheels also have light and heavy spots. Typically the heaviest spot on the wheel is found during manufacture and the valve stem is then located diametrically opposite that point to help balance the wheel out).
As well as not being able to manufacture perfectly weighted tyres, it's also nearly impossible to make a tyre which is perfectly circular. By perfectly circular, I mean down to some nauseating number of decimal places. Again, you'd be hard pushed to actually be able to tell that a tyre wasn't round without specialist equipment. Every tyre has a high and a low spot, the difference of which is called radial runout. Using sophisticated computer analysis, tyre manufacturers spin each tyre and look for the 'wobble' in the tyre at certain RPMs. It's all about harmonic frequency (you know - the frequency at which something vibrates, like the Tacoma Narrows bridge collapse). Where the first harmonic curve from the tyre wobble hits its high point, that's where the tyre's high spot is. Manufacturers typically mark this point with a red dot on the tyre sidewall, although again, some tyres have no marks, and others use different colours. This is called the uniformity mark. Correspondingly, most wheel rims are also not 100% circular, and will have a notch or a dimple stamped into the wheel rim somewhere indicating their low point. It makes sense then, that the high point of the tyre should be matched with the low point of the wheel rim to balance out the radial runout.

What if both dots are present?
Generally speaking, if you get a tyre with both a red and a yellow dot on it, it should be mounted according to the red dot - ie. the uniformity mark should line up with the dimple on the wheel rim, and the yellow mark should be ignored.

What about the coloured stripes in the tread?

Often when you buy tyres, there will be a coloured band or stripe running around the tyre inside the tread. These can be any colour and can be placed laterally almost anyhwere across the tread. For ages I thought they were either a uniformity check - a painted mark used to check the "roundness" of the tyre - or and indication of the tyre runout. Turns out the answer is far simpler and much more disappointing. The lines are sprayed on to the rubber tread stock after it has been extruded during the manufacturing process. The problem is that the tread stock can be manufactured hours or days before it's actually used to make the tyres. So the lines serve one main purpose - they're an in-factory identification for the tyre builders to make sure they're using the correct tread stock for the carcass of the tyre they're assembling. Think of them like a barcode. They can sometimes indicate the rubber compound or the intended tyre size and often you'll find other information printed on to the tread as well as the stripes (see the example below of a number code).


When a tyre is being assembled, all the components are put together (carcass, beads, belts etc) inside a tyre mould and the stripes help the technician to align the tread stock properly. The inside of the mould has the inverse pattern of the tyre tread in it so that when heat and pressure are applied, the rubber in the tread stock is forced into the mould. Excess rubber is allowed to escape through little holes (called spew holes) which is why you'll often find what look like rubber hairs on a new tyre - they're excess rubber from the spew holes that was never trimmed. If you look closely at where one of the sprayed-on lines crosses a tread block, you'll be able to see where it's been stretched during the moulding process. The picture above is a good example.
All this is well and good if the manufacturing plant uses an 8-segment petal-type tyre machine (where the mould is on the inside of a bunch of metal 'petals' that close to form the finished shape), but on older 2-part moulds, the tread stock can be pushed off-centre as the mould closes so the lines also serve one other function - a visual inspection post-assembly to make sure the tyre tread remained in the correct place. As the tyre is being spun during inspection, the lines will wander across the tread if something became misaligned during the manufacturing process.



Read more: http://www.carbibles.com/tyre_bible_pg2.html#ixzz21YPg1A2j

You got cheap tires, you got cheap rims, you more likely got problems to fix. This couple with Mazda's (not just Mz5) high strung suspension/alignment specs that gives you the zoom zoom (god I hate saying that phrase), it can be more problematic. Ensuring proper Match Mounting is a good start and finding the right technician will go very far.
 
If you are going to find another shop to re-check balancing, see if you can find one near you that uses Hunter GSP9700 machine (http://www.gsp9700.com/search/findgsp9700.cfm). This is supposedly the best road force balancing machine on the market but the machine itself can only do so much. The tech has to be competent too. I had a young guy mount/balance but he didn't know anything outside of step1, do this, step 2, do that...

Wherever you go, if the tech finds the mounting to be really poor (kind of hard to believe since they sell so much), make sure Discount Tire compensates hears about it…
 
If you are going to find another shop to re-check balancing, see if you can find one near you that uses Hunter GSP9700 machine (http://www.gsp9700.com/search/findgsp9700.cfm). This is supposedly the best road force balancing machine on the market but the machine itself can only do so much. The tech has to be competent too. I had a young guy mount/balance but he didn't know anything outside of step1, do this, step 2, do that...

Wherever you go, if the tech finds the mounting to be really poor (kind of hard to believe since they sell so much), make sure Discount Tire compensates hears about it

Agreed. That hunter machine is the s#%t!

As far as lining up the dots on the tire, I have always lined up my yellow dots with the valve atem if both red and yellow are present. In the 17 years I have been working with wheels and tires, I have seen and installed everything.

As Silentnoise stated, cheap wheels and tires can have more quality control issues.
 
Thanks, I'm gona read thru those later after dinner :)

I guess the wheels are certainly low-end-ish... Drag. The tires should be pretty good tho, Michelin MXV4.

After some rotations and testing, I managed to isolate the source of vibration to 1 particular wheel/tire. The other 3 wheel/tires are ok.


I'm kinda disappointed with Discount Tire Direct too with this purchase. Definitely will ask for reimbursement, 1 of the reps who replied me said they will do that... but I'll believe it when I get the money!

First they forgot to ship me the hub rings...
Second, they for sure did an absolute piss-poor job in balancing. I actually PAID EXTRA to Discount Tire to have all 4 wheels/tires Road-Force-balanced (i.e. using that Hunter GSP machine, supposedly), to avoid having to go thru the exact stuffs I'm wasting time on right now (eyeballs).


That particular problematic wheel/tire, now that I look at it, actually has 11 pieces of 1/4oz counter-weight in 1 spot (eyeballs)!!! They either did NOT do any Road-Force balancing at all, or had zero idea how to do it, or the wheel is ridiculously out of round.

I have an appointment with a tire/wheel specialty shop to get the wheel re-balanced with the Hunter thing tomorrow... so hopefully it's just a bad balancing job and not a defective wheel.... finger crossed.
 
OMG... still can't fix the vibration problem (boom01)

Just back from a reputable tire shop (Not gona mention its name since I don't want to associate the current problem with it, not its fault), doing Road Force balancing with the Hunter machine.... TWICE! ... and still gets vibration from the steering :(


The driver-side (left) front wheel is balanced to ~12lb force (or whatever that number stands for from the Hunter machine), and the passenger-side (right) front wheel, which I suspected to be the problem, is balanced to ~20lb (limit is 24 as indicated by the machine).



I'm gona do another front-back rotation on 1 side again tonight to double-triple confirm the current right-front wheel is the problem.
But other than that, I'm really at a lost of what's going on!?!?! The tech looked at the wheel and tire and said they looked fine. I'm going to the shop again on Friday to let to shop owner test drive the car to feel the vibration, and to perhaps get the final number smaller than 20lb on that right-front wheel .... but I kinda doubt it's gona solve it....


Any random thoughts on possible cause of the vibration? (shrug) Some sort of defect in the wheel that isn't visible, isn't detectable by balancer, and yet causes unbalance? Is that even possible?
This is getting frustrating.... HELP!
 
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any shop you go to, describe the symptoms to the tech. simply asking them to balance tires won't necessarily fix vibrations. balancing is done off the car so any combination of circumstances between the car and the wheel could cause vibrations. let the tech reproduce the symptoms and diagnose the issue.

how many miles on the car? bad wheel bearing can cause vibration. i'm assuming the stock mazda5 wheel is heavier than the aftermarket wheel. vibrations would be less noticable on the heavier wheel than a lighter aftermarket wheel.

so did they check if the wheel(s) is true, ie. perfectly round? a wheel that is not true or out-of-round can also cause vibrations.

have you called discount tire and explained the scenario? what did they say?
 
any shop you go to, describe the symptoms to the tech. simply asking them to balance tires won't necessarily fix vibrations. balancing is done off the car so any combination of circumstances between the car and the wheel could cause vibrations. let the tech reproduce the symptoms and diagnose the issue.
They didn't test-drive it to feel for themselves but I told them the problem as much as I know, including that I've done some rotations & testing and thought the problem is from the right-front wheel. The 2nd time they did the balancing, I was in the bay watching as they did it too.

how many miles on the car? bad wheel bearing can cause vibration. i'm assuming the stock mazda5 wheel is heavier than the aftermarket wheel. vibrations would be less noticable on the heavier wheel than a lighter aftermarket wheel.
Only 60k-KM. I did not get vibration from the OEM wheels, nor from the OTHER new wheels (which are in the rear currently).... so I think the problem isn't from parts of the car. Not sure about the weight difference, they feel pretty similar. They new tires are 1 "size" bigger at 215/50/17 too, so that alone will be heavier.

so did they check if the wheel(s) is true, ie. perfectly round? a wheel that is not true or out-of-round can also cause vibrations.
they said the wheel looks fine... but then of course I have no experience to confirm that other than looking at how it spins.

have you called discount tire and explained the scenario? what did they say?
yeah I have been emailing DiscountTire about the ongoing issue (first missing hub rings, then now just can't balance that wheel). The latest reply I got is basically asked me to re-balance the wheel in shop that does Road-Force balance.... which I just did this morning to no val.

Replies in BOLD.


Basically I'm debating if I should try to get DiscountTire to replace that one wheel NOW.... or should I keep trying to balance/check that wheel, i.e. let the tech test-drives & re-re-rebalance, or even (someone suggested) go to a wheel repair shop to have that wheel checked for defect. By the time I do all these plus whatever I already did, the total cost is more than the 1 rim already.... :(
 
OMG... still can't fix the vibration problem (boom01)

Just back from a reputable tire shop (Not gona mention its name since I don't want to associate the current problem with it, not its fault), doing Road Force balancing with the Hunter machine.... TWICE! ... and still gets vibration from the steering :(


The driver-side (left) front wheel is balanced to ~12lb force (or whatever that number stands for from the Hunter machine), and the passenger-side (right) front wheel, which I suspected to be the problem, is balanced to ~20lb (limit is 24 as indicated by the machine).



I'm gona do another front-back rotation on 1 side again tonight to double-triple confirm the current right-front wheel is the problem.
But other than that, I'm really at a lost of what's going on!?!?! The tech looked at the wheel and tire and said they looked fine. I'm going to the shop again on Friday to let to shop owner test drive the car to feel the vibration, and to perhaps get the final number smaller than 20lb on that right-front wheel .... but I kinda doubt it's gona solve it....


Any random thoughts on possible cause of the vibration? (shrug) Some sort of defect in the wheel that isn't visible, isn't detectable by balancer, and yet causes unbalance? Is that even possible?
This is getting frustrating.... HELP!
Did you have the tech dismount and properly remount the tire or only respin in on the machine and +/- weight?? There are a lot of factors at play. Here's another member who has/had vibration issues. I also recall another who resolved the problem by replacing the rotors (have seen that with Miata owners too).
http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?123802973-Vibration-even-after-roadforce-balancing

Not that this is going to give you a direct answer but Google "Miata shimmy" and you'll find a lot to read and some tips to eliminate vibrations.
 
Did you have the tech dismount and properly remount the tire or only respin in on the machine and +/- weight??

From what I can tell, they first spin the wheels on the machine (with the pressure roller on) to get an initial reading, to see if the mount is good, before actually balancing/weighing & re-testing. Now whether they did everything correctly, obvious I dont' have the knowledge to judge. But at least this is supposedly a pretty reputable tire/wheel specialty shop (it's not a general mechanic shop), they install wheels on sport cars, exotic cars and what not (the owner drives a GTR!). And they ONLY do road-force balancing for all balancing jobs. And aside from the tech, even the shop owner was there the 2nd time they did the balancing for me.

They did dismount/remount the tire on the LEFT-front wheel, as the initial reading was above threshold (@26lb & threshold is 24lb). But the RIGHT-front wheel which I suspected to have problem, actually showed good initial reading and didn't require remount.

Which of course was simply more confusing... as from my own rotations and test-driving, the LEFT-front wheel seemed to be mostly fine. Yet it was above threshold, tho not by a whole lot so perhaps not enough to cause vibration. But the RIGHT-front wheel that I thought has problem was below threshold right of the bat.... what gives?!?!
 
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Just called Discount Tire Direct. They are gona send me a new set of wheel+tire, and email me RMA to return the defective one. So kudo to DTD for great service there.

Also asked them to send me a new set of aluminum hub rings. The plastic ones they sent me already has a crack in 1 ring after mount/dismounting 15 times the last 1-1/2 weeks...

Just have to suffer a few more days of shaking..... hopefully!
 
OP, 1st thing I would have done is return to DTC about the wobble. They would have pulled them all off again (free) and looked for anomolies. A more senior tech would have done the work and guaranteed he would note the long string of small weights that signals a newbie that "just can't get it right" respinning it over and over again adding 1/4 oz at a time. Anyone at DTC with a bit of experience and willing to pay attention can get it right with no more than 3 spins total unless the wheel is bent or tire out-of-round. I see from subsequent posts that that would not have resolved the problem, so a return trip would have had them remove the tire from the wheel, spin it 180 degrees and remount it. That would isolate alot of possibilities. If it still didn't balance out easily and with low weight requirements, they would have immediately looked into replacing the tire or wheel. I worked for them for many years and have had an even longer association w/them. They know tires/wheels like no major retailer knows tires and wheels. I'm glad to see they took care of the offending parts, but sad to see you felt you had to spend more $$ at a 2nd shop.
 
Thanks thazman.

My set is an online purchase, that's why I couldn't bring the suspecting wheel/tire back immediately. DTD told me to get it re-balance and would reimburse me. I haven't asked for reimbursement yet during today's call for replacement, kinda skipped my mind. But I'll email them later for it.
Of course I ended up doing alot of the tire mounting/remounting/rotation myself so those can't really be reimbursed... oh well at least I'm really fast at changing tires if I ever get a flat tire lol.

But overall, can't complain about after-sale customer service from DTD that's for sure.
 
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