Ok, now I am pissed

[rmedoc]

BE WARNED!! Very long, but need answers and need to vent my frustration. Thanks in advance for your time!

Well folks, its dumb ol' me again. I need some help 'cause I got really pissed off today at the local car audio place.

1st off, I have read all the posts about keeping the stock HU in place and upgrading the front and rear speakers, adding an amp, and using an alpine v-power 5 ch to power it all. I was all excited 'cause I thought I could just go to the store around here and get the stuff, and have it installed.

:bs:So, I go to the store, look at the equipment, and pick out what I want. The salesman then asked me, "well, what kind of HU ya got bra?"(yeah, I live in hawaii, they all talk like this, its bra here, not bro) I told him I wanted to keep the stock HU to please my wife and myself. I like it for security, she is set on not losing our 6-disc in dash. He then tells me that this setup won't work 'cause I can't control the bass in the sub, because when I use the bass on the stock HU, all the speakers are going to get affected. I then asked, "I was always told that you NEVER use the controls on the stock HU, thats what the amp is for. You can control the output from there with the line level inputs." He basically told me who ever told me that was a moron, and that "trust him" it wouldn't work. So, off to the next guy!

:'( Trip 2, next audio place around the corner. Ok, got almost the same equipment, but had to choose different speakers. No biggie, sound about the same to my virign audio upgrade ears (they are 6x8 Polk EX368s instead of RF's). The "Tech Expert" asks if I need help, and I tell him, yeah, before I spit out $600 for this crap(since Hawaii prices are EXPENSIVE), tell me what you think about this; and I lead him into the stock HU idea. He tells me I am again "stupid" and that it is a waste of time. He then shows me the Pioneer amsnr0234(or whatever stupid # it is) and tells me its a great HU, he sells em to all p5 owners around here, and it it what I need for my setup. I tell him about the ideas and things coming off this board, and he basically calls all you guys stupid too, like you don't know what you are talking about. I told him, sorry, but I trust a gazillion people on a message board with obvious knowledge about a Pro5 over you any day, and I walked out of the store.

:wtf:Last and final trip for the day, 'cause one more pissing contest and I might end up in jail (not good for my military career mind you). So, 3rd choice, the new Base Exchange. Great stuff, and they have actual Apline, Kenwood, and Sony reps walking around the floor to help you. Plus, NO TAX!! so I can save some money. I pick out my stuff, but no Apline AMP. They have an MTX 5ch, about $200 more, but they claim "its worth the sound." I explain to them that I am not winning or trying to win an audio contest, I only want rich quality music I enjoy listening to. So I pick out what I want, explain to all 3 reps that I am keeping my stock HU, and walk em through what I heard could happen with the setup. Lo and Behold Same freaking answer! "You can't do that! The bass would be all screwed up." Needless to say, I left in a fit of rage, trying to keep my military bearing in front of the high ranking officers, and went on my merry way, knocking over a DVD display on my way out, lookin like an ass.

Ok, now its time for my questions.
1)Could someone please reassure me that the setup I want it feasible and do-able. I know it already is, I just want to hear it said again to calm my nerves.

2)Also, could someone please explain to me how to tell the idiots here what they need to do to wire up the amp so I can use the damn stock HU. I already know not to use the bass on the HU, but could you explain to me how to turn up the bass to the sub without going to the speakers in the doors, that way I can explain it to the morons around the island.

3) If anyone lives in Hawaii, like I know the guy from Team Pro5 does, I see his car all over the island, could you give me a reccommendation on which audio place to go to. I am not into spending a fortune of my kids college fund on this thing; and my wife has given me an allowance of $500 before she gets pissed.
I have looked into buying the stuff online, but with the shipping, it comes out to more than I can get the stuff here most of the time, and I heard buying over the internet isnt always a good idea.

Well folks, like I said, thank you very much for your time. You have helped me out in the past, and I am sure you wil do the same again. Look forward to printing a good bunch of messages from this website to show the car audio place that I am indeed right, and they are still a bunch of jackasses.

 

[slug420]

im selling 2 RF 10" subs and a 400 watt RF amp with a sony head unit for 500 bucks (plus shipping of course) but this doesnt solve ANY of your problems


back to you though. in your setup you described getting new front and rear speakers and a 5 channel amp to power it all....but then in your first situation you mention the salesman saying you wont be able to control bass on the sub from the stock headunit. if you are just upgrading the speakers and adding an amp for them you should be fine, an aftermarket head unit wouldbe a lot better, but it will certainly work and i imagine sound quality will only go up from the totally stock system......

if you are adding a sub, then likewise it is possible, they need an adapter thought i believe. If you add an aftermarket head unit all your stock speakers will sound better and the addition of a sub will be that much easier and will sound that much better...

im sure other people will come along and correct me here but until they do, there's my input

 

[rmedoc]

Well thanks for the input. Every little bit helps. But I screwed up my first post. When I stated which speakers I was upgrading, I forgot to mention that yes, a sub will be installed in hatch, hence the reason for the 5ch amp. I am going to get the jl 10w0(i think thats the number) its the one that Sir Nuke talks highly about. I can't change the HU out for aftermarket, 'cause I can't upset the wife. That's the problem with marriage, have to compromise and meet in the middle. But, from what I have been told, it shouldn't matter, I should still be able to get good sound out of it, just trying to figure out how to explain the setup to the install guy, 'cause they are as clueless as me, and they are the "experts." Thanks again though

 

[1sty]

BE WARNED!! Very long, but need answers and need to vent my frustration. Thanks in advance for your time!

Well folks, its dumb ol' me again. I need some help 'cause I got really pissed off today at the local car audio place.

1st off, I have read all the posts about keeping the stock HU in place and upgrading the front and rear speakers, adding an amp, and using an alpine v-power 5 ch to power it all. I was all excited 'cause I thought I could just go to the store around here and get the stuff, and have it installed.

:bs:So, I go to the store, look at the equipment, and pick out what I want. The salesman then asked me, "well, what kind of HU ya got bra?"(yeah, I live in hawaii, they all talk like this, its bra here, not bro) I told him I wanted to keep the stock HU to please my wife and myself. I like it for security, she is set on not losing our 6-disc in dash. He then tells me that this setup won't work 'cause I can't control the bass in the sub, because when I use the bass on the stock HU, all the speakers are going to get affected. I then asked, "I was always told that you NEVER use the controls on the stock HU, thats what the amp is for. You can control the output from there with the line level inputs." He basically told me who ever told me that was a moron, and that "trust him" it wouldn't work. So, off to the next guy!

:'( Trip 2, next audio place around the corner. Ok, got almost the same equipment, but had to choose different speakers. No biggie, sound about the same to my virign audio upgrade ears (they are 6x8 Polk EX368s instead of RF's). The "Tech Expert" asks if I need help, and I tell him, yeah, before I spit out $600 for this crap(since Hawaii prices are EXPENSIVE), tell me what you think about this; and I lead him into the stock HU idea. He tells me I am again "stupid" and that it is a waste of time. He then shows me the Pioneer amsnr0234(or whatever stupid # it is) and tells me its a great HU, he sells em to all p5 owners around here, and it it what I need for my setup. I tell him about the ideas and things coming off this board, and he basically calls all you guys stupid too, like you don't know what you are talking about. I told him, sorry, but I trust a gazillion people on a message board with obvious knowledge about a Pro5 over you any day, and I walked out of the store.

:wtf:Last and final trip for the day, 'cause one more pissing contest and I might end up in jail (not good for my military career mind you). So, 3rd choice, the new Base Exchange. Great stuff, and they have actual Apline, Kenwood, and Sony reps walking around the floor to help you. Plus, NO TAX!! so I can save some money. I pick out my stuff, but no Apline AMP. They have an MTX 5ch, about $200 more, but they claim "its worth the sound." I explain to them that I am not winning or trying to win an audio contest, I only want rich quality music I enjoy listening to. So I pick out what I want, explain to all 3 reps that I am keeping my stock HU, and walk em through what I heard could happen with the setup. Lo and Behold Same freaking answer! "You can't do that! The bass would be all screwed up." Needless to say, I left in a fit of rage, trying to keep my military bearing in front of the high ranking officers, and went on my merry way, knocking over a DVD display on my way out, lookin like an ass.

Ok, now its time for my questions.
1)Could someone please reassure me that the setup I want it feasible and do-able. I know it already is, I just want to hear it said again to calm my nerves.

2)Also, could someone please explain to me how to tell the idiots here what they need to do to wire up the amp so I can use the damn stock HU. I already know not to use the bass on the HU, but could you explain to me how to turn up the bass to the sub without going to the speakers in the doors, that way I can explain it to the morons around the island.

3) If anyone lives in Hawaii, like I know the guy from Team Pro5 does, I see his car all over the island, could you give me a reccommendation on which audio place to go to. I am not into spending a fortune of my kids college fund on this thing; and my wife has given me an allowance of $500 before she gets pissed.
I have looked into buying the stuff online, but with the shipping, it comes out to more than I can get the stuff here most of the time, and I heard buying over the internet isnt always a good idea.

Well folks, like I said, thank you very much for your time. You have helped me out in the past, and I am sure you wil do the same again. Look forward to printing a good bunch of messages from this website to show the car audio place that I am indeed right, and they are still a bunch of jackasses.

1, Yes the setup will work.

2, Simple, if you said you wanted any inpedpendant control of the subs volume in relation to the speaker. With the stock headunit the only adjustment that will effect the volume level of the sub independantly is the gain on the amp. However the amps gain is not intended to be a volume control. It is meant to match the input voltage level of the headunit. Once set it should not be turned up otherwise you will get dstortion. With that gain you need to set it to a level that does not distort and is in the relationship to the speakers volume you want.
Many aftermarket headunits come with a seperate RCA pre-out for just the sub woofers amp so there volume can be adjusted independantly of the rest of the system. The salesmen were trying to sell you this feature. From our previous conversation it didn't seem like that was what you wanted. YOu seemed to be fine to set the volume relationship of the sub to the speakers and leave it be. If you desire a seperate control for just the bass to constanlty increase or decrease its volume and its volume alone then yes you need an aftermarket head unit. Also if you do desire that function the 5 channel Apine V-power will not work since it does not have a sub only RCA input.

Here is a link to the alpine amp. You may want to get aquanted with it.
http://www.alpine1.com/html/D2_n_1_n_n.html

3, We need to talk some more about what you want to do. It sounds like a seperate volume control is import to you know, where as before a set and walk away gain was fine.
With the 5 channel alpine your speakers will not have the lowest bass notes sent to them helping they better and louder. They will reach a higher volume without distortion. However as you turn up the front speakers the subs volume will of coarse increase aswell.

 

[1sty]

If you want I can get you just a parts list and don't even give them a chance to sell you anything. Just tell them you want it installed and be done with it. Also Speak to an installer. 9 out of 10 times the guy behind the counter doesn't have a damn clue.

 

[Sir Nuke]

rmedoc, EVIDENTLY you are in the NAVY? cool....I am an EX-squid.

for starters...the reason the guys at the stores are telling you what they are...is simple.....they are SALESMEN and are trying to talk you into buying stuff you REALLY don't need...

the system is more than doable...as I have it in my car at this very moment....and to me...it ROCKS.

is there any chance that you can do the install yourself? or is that just to much? I mean...YOU know what your limitations are.....do any of your buddies know anything about this stuff? could you get some assistance and do it yourself?

1st answered the technical questions for you already...so no need to retype all that stuff...lol

(stash)

 

[rmedoc]

You 2 gyus rock! I knew I could count on 1st and Nuke to the rescue. But alas, my dumbass knowledge of car electronics has again made me speak out of the "norm."

1stMP3, I think I confused everyone, and I apologize for it. What I meant by my post referring to the sub increase was what I stated in my first discussion with you. I AM FINE with the sub NOT having its own volume control. What I meant when I said I was always told that you NEVER use the controls on the stock HU, thats what the amp is for. You can control the output from there with the line level inputs." I think is where I got dumb and confusing. I asked the saleman this because he was telling me there was NO WAY to set the bass in the sub at all from the amp. He told me the only way to get any bass from the sub was to get a separate HU, and without it, the sub would act just like the door speakers.

Nuke, sorry, not Navy, Army. But glad to see fellow service members having a good time, veteran or not. As for the install myself, probably not. I can build computers from scratch, and I am great with Home Audio, but when it comes to cars, I get, for lack of a better word, "scared." When I screw up a computer or at home, it is easily fixable for the most part. If I screw up in the car, I feel I risk internal damage to the HU, the speakers themselves, and the car as a whole. It just seems that too much could go wrong.
As for friends helping me, yeah, I have some that are pretty good with stereos and whatnot, but they have all said they have never done anything like this before. Plus, I was worried about warranties and all that crap in case something breaks down the line. If I don't get it professionally installed, do the manufacturers still honor their warranties, say if the sub was to blow out or something due to wire failure or whatever reason?

Ok guys, I hoped I cleared myself up. Thanks for the help, I really appreciate it. Again, I apologize for being so confusing, I am just trying to make sure, like you said, I don't get screwed from the salesman, and I don't get in over my head with this whole thing. Sorry you're wasting time with an audio newbie like me. If you're ever in Honolulu, give me a holler and I'll but ya some drinks!

 

[Sir Nuke]

Nuke, sorry, not Navy, Army. But glad to see fellow service members having a good time, veteran or not. As for the install myself, probably not
Ok guys, I hoped I cleared myself up. Thanks for the help, I really appreciate it. Again, I apologize for being so confusing, I am just trying to make sure, like you said, I don't get screwed from the salesman, and I don't get in over my head with this whole thing. Sorry you're wasting time with an audio newbie like me. If you're ever in Honolulu, give me a holler and I'll but ya some drinks!

well ya gotta admitt.....being stationed where you are....it was a pretty good chance you were a squid! lol

DUDE....we are NOT wasting our time....its why we are here in the first place....not only to learn....but to TEACH. hell, that is half the fun for me!

I can understand your reluctance on the install...especially without any previous experience...and on a NEW car. If you are not SURE...the best thing you can do is have a pro do it...NOW all you have to do is find a reputable pro that is willing to work with you.

ya see....it don't scare me....I have been doing automotive stuff like this for a long time.....have actually COMPLETELY wired a car from scratch before....it was a fairly simple job considering the car...but none the less...its just a matter of taking your time....doing your homework upfront...having all the right components.....all the right tools.....and taking your time. The complete install of all my door speakers, the amp, and the sub took me about 5 hours.....and that was with never having done an install like this before....or having ever taken apart my doors or taking the stock head unit out. There was a little bit of a learning curve there.... BUT, none the less....it came off without a hitch.

if you want to make yourself more knowledgable on the Alpine V-Power amp I used....go here:

http://www.alpine1.com/html/D2_n_1_n_n.html

then click on the PRODUCTS button...then AMPLIFIERS...then on "5 channel amps" then the model number for the amp (MRP-F320) then the specs will come up...there is a link to the manual in Acrobat form....pop it up...and print it. the adjustment seciton is quite easy to understand. as is the whole thing...

 

[rmedoc]

Thanks Nuke! The link 1st gave me, and I already did what you suggest, I printed it out, and now I gotta something to read in my study(the bathroom).
Can I pick your brain some more now please. I gotta few more questions. I am attaching a pick of the speaker layout I want for the car setup, with some ideas as to what speakers I want to use. I am set on the AMP, so that will not be changing. The speakers I got to listen to in a friends Civic Hatch, and they sounded fairly good to me. I know that picking speakers is a personal choice, but I figured I would ask for some opinions on what you thought about it.
The big question though is with the Sub box. I like the box from JL Audio, but am a little concerned about the space. Remember, I have to please 2 people here, and space is going to be an issue. Does a smaller hatch box like the one pictured totally suck for sound quality, and should I pitch to the spouse the need for the bigger box? Also, with the sub, it doesn't appear to be covered or anything, so I guess I would just need to be extra careful not to puncture the sub with any groceries or whatnot correct?
Thanks again man!

 

[Sir Nuke]

The Polk speakers you chose are a nice choice too....they were ONE of the three I was looking at....and there really was no DATA that made me chose one over the other...it was an availability thing.

the sub box. I went with the JL box for the simple logic that who better to design the box for the sub than the maker of the sub? seems to me their box would be the best for the all round performance of the sub. I will take a picture of mine and post it up...the BACK of the box is slanted and fits up against the back of the seats PERFECTLY.....its width....if you look into your hatch section...and spot the metal loops for tie downs on the back of the seats....the box sits JUST inside each of those with it centered. AND. by the time you buy the sub itself...then the box....you don't come out that much cheaper. NOT if you get a good quality box that is.

I too haul stuff around in the back of my car now and then....and there was no way I was going to leave the sub back there nekid....since I got all my stuff at my local shop...and the guys there are really cool....they GAVE me a grill and the clamps for it...okay it was only like a $5 gimmie...but it was the jesture that made the difference.....so get a grill for the sub. they are plastic and very inexpensive.

ONE MORE THING.....i will make you a deal....IF by chance you don't get the system upgraded by the time I win our state lottery....I will take my wife on vacation and while I am there...I will do your install with you....and teach you how... :{D

 

[Sir Nuke]

a few more things here.....lets ASSUME that both boxes have the CORRECT volume for the sub....I would bet that the JL box does for sure....anyway...making that assumption....if the "skinnier" box has the correct volume too...that means it MUST be deaper to have the same volume....and thus it would stick out farther into the storage portion of the back of the car.....which also means that the JL box huggs the back of the seats closer....NOW they MAY physically take up the same space/volume....but the JL box would probably fit the back of the car better.

I happened to run into one of my buddies out here at work and he had his digital camera.....so I borrowed it and went to the parking lot and got a few pics. NOW you can play show and tell with the little lady. :{D

oh yeah...you can see the grill I put on there too.

 

[1sty]

1stMP3, I think I confused everyone, and I apologize for it. What I meant by my post referring to the sub increase was what I stated in my first discussion with you. I AM FINE with the sub NOT having its own volume control. What I meant when I said I was always told that you NEVER use the controls on the stock HU, thats what the amp is for. You can control the output from there with the line level inputs." I think is where I got dumb and confusing. I asked the saleman this because he was telling me there was NO WAY to set the bass in the sub at all from the amp. He told me the only way to get any bass from the sub was to get a separate HU, and without it, the sub would act just like the door speakers.

A factory radio has no line level outputs only speaker level. The Alpine amp excepts the speaker level inputs. It has front and rear speaker inputs fo you can keep the fader intact. The amp uses these speaker inputs to create the signal for all four speakers and the sub. The amp has an adjustable crossover for the sub so it only plays lows. The amp also has a high pass crossover switch that will keep the lows off of the speakers to help them not distort early and give you more volume. The amp does have a bass boost switch, +8 db, but It tends to add distortion, try it if you like. Each the front, rear and sub has its own gain adjustment so you can set everythings level as you like best.

In some ways the sub will just be like a speaker in that te volume knob on the radio will raise and lower the volume of everything and you will have no independant control of the subs from the speakers on the fly while driving. You can always stop and adjust the amp to your tastes though.

Nuke, sorry, not Navy, Army. But glad to see fellow service members having a good time, veteran or not. As for the install myself, probably not. I can build computers from scratch, and I am great with Home Audio, but when it comes to cars, I get, for lack of a better word, "scared." When I screw up a computer or at home, it is easily fixable for the most part. If I screw up in the car, I feel I risk internal damage to the HU, the speakers themselves, and the car as a whole. It just seems that too much could go wrong.
As for friends helping me, yeah, I have some that are pretty good with stereos and whatnot, but they have all said they have never done anything like this before. Plus, I was worried about warranties and all that crap in case something breaks down the line. If I don't get it professionally installed, do the manufacturers still honor their warranties, say if the sub was to blow out or something due to wire failure or whatever reason?

The hardest part about the install will be removing the factoruy radio, when thats out the rest of the job is tit. The Protege comes apart VERY EASILY. I taken mine apart several times and never even broke a clip. The fire wall is also easy to get through so running an 8 guage poer is also very easy. With Nukes custom radio removal tools, a few screw drivers, Wire cutter, stripper and crimpers, and a comprehensive wratchet set you can doo this install.

Alpine may offer a longer warrenty if an authorized dealer installs it. Typicaly the maker gives you 1 year if you do it yourself and 3 if a dealer does it. Alpine amy or may not work like this, I don't know. JL will warrenty that box the same for anyone most likely, but you can always call and find out. JL sells grills for the sub and any stereo shop should stock grills that will fit if they dont either www.partsexpress.com will have some for short money.

 

[rmedoc]

What can I say, U 2 RULE! Thanks again for the help. Nuke, ya sold me on the JL Box, it looks fantastic! And 1st, what can I say, you give more insight on situations than almost anyone here. I am gonna go out this weekend and grab everything I can. Now the ony question is, should I go back to the same place to get the equipment, or should I try somewhere else? HMMM, I'll have to think about that one awhile.
Thanks again fellas. Remember, if you're ever in Honolulu, I owe ya a few rounds!

 

[Sir Nuke]

What can I say, U 2 RULE! Thanks again for the help.
Thanks again fellas. Remember, if you're ever in Honolulu, I owe ya a few rounds!

Anytime dude....and just keep your fingers crossed....IF I win the lottery....I will be out to help with the install!! :{D

 

[1sty]

Hows the search for the system going?

 

[rmedoc]

Well, the system has been put on hold unfortunately. Had some family emergencies back in Arizona, so I had to dish out $1000 for plane tickets home. I'll just have to wait until I get back to save up the money again.

But, while I was looking for the stuff, I found out that I can't buy the JL Audio sub that I want anywhere on this damn rock we call an island. Well, I can get the sub, but the enclosures that they come in are not actually from JL Audio. They are all made as "universal" enclosures. I am pretty skeptical about doing this, 'cause they all look like crap anyways, and from what I have read, it is better to get a sub box from the company that makes the sub iteself.
Also, with Xmas coming up, I can't get the Amp anymore either. I guess its the "must have" around here. The one dealer that I know that carries it for a decent price (most of the stores being around $300 for the thing, he being $235), has been sold out since the first day I went looking, and he doens't expect anymore in for awhile.
I guess it doesn't matter since I have to wait, it just sucks that when I do get the money put together, I may have to go the internet route to buy the stuff. I just worry that I'll get the stuff in the mail, and it'll all be broken, a headache I don't want to deal with.
1st, you don't know of any tweeter's in Hawaii do you? I couldn't find one in the phone book.
OK guys, I'll keep ya posted on the events, as I am sure I'll be contacting you again during install time.

 

[1sty]

I don't believe there are any tweeters off the main land.

A good thing will be that all the new products will be coming out in Macrh so there may be some new stuff you'll be interested in.

Any JL dealer should be able to special order the boxes.
I build enclosures for JL's very frequently. A simple sealed box isn't a diffucult task. Any good shop with a decent table saw should be able to complete the task for $100 or less. Just make sure its 3/4" MDF and that every joint is glued, nailes or screwed , and caulked. The only thing important is the air space and build quality.

I hope the familiy situation is OK and everyone is fine or at least at peace. Hope things get better.

 

[Sir Nuke]

Dude.....Hope everything is okay at the home front.....


Just something to think about.....once you determine EXACTLY the pieces/parts you want....if there is a shop there that can GET them....and you are waiting.....see if they have a LAY-AWAY plan....so you can give them a small down payment....they can order them if they don't have them....you can be paying a little at a time while they are ordered.....then once they come in....they are on the shelf waiting......then after you get them paid off...they are there for your taking and no waiting... :{D kill two birds with one stone.

 

[rmedoc]

DUH, never thought of that, great idea, I may just haveta do that. Thanks again!

 

[Sir Nuke]

DUH, never thought of that, great idea, I may just haveta do that. Thanks again!

anytime dude.....they always say....two heads are better than one...

(stash)