Not running right after timing belt change

[iammoen]

So my waterpump just went out on my 2003.5 mazdaspeed protege so I replaced it and the timing belt. When I got it all back together the car started up fine and idles mediocre (it has always idled a bit low when cold but does it more now).

However when I get on the throttle the engine doesn't rev like it used to. Much more sluggish. When accelerating the car feels like something is retarding the timing or something. When I do 80% throttle or so my boost gauge will go up to 0 and then gradually boost a little bit higher. But it isn't smooth. It's like you can hear the engine working hard and you can hear the whooshing of the turbo but it feels like I lost 100hp.

Any ideas? I really don't think I missed a tooth when putting the timing belt on but if the crankshaft was one tooth offset from the camshafts how would the car run? Would one tooth off make it do what is happening above or would the car pretty much not even run? Is there some sensor not working? I removed and reinstalled the camshaft sensor and the crankshaft position sensor during the belt change and perhaps one of those isn't working currently somehow?

Any ideas would be greatly, greatly appreciated! Thank you!

 

[hornsfan10609]

Timing belt is probably off, remove the VC and take pics of the marks lined up.
If it were the cam or crank sensor the car wouldn't run at all.

 

[iammoen]

The markings on the cams should line up when the crankshaft set pin is tdc right? I know for sure the cams line up but the question would be if they line up perfectly with the crankshaft. Shouldn't be too hard to get pics today of this though.

Edit: Oh and wouldn't the cam sensor and crankshaft sensor know they were off from each other and throw a code or something? I am 99.9% sure the cams a lined up but only 95% sure about the crankshaft because the mark I had made got pretty washed off when the water pump broke loose and got some coolant on it.

I took it out again last night a little bit and it seemed to run a bit better (more power). If the timing belt were off I shouldn't even see an improvement and honestly I would think it would run worse than this. The other thing that is now creeping into my head is whether I somehow broke something, One instance in particular comes to mind:

When I removed the engine mount to be able to change the timing belt and water pump I didn't have the proper engine holder. I used a jack on the bottom of the engine on a piece of metal right in front of the oil pan. I went inside to get my brother to help quickly with the water pump and when I came back out I heard a metallic ping. I had written this off to the jack making noises but now I am wondering if where I jacked it or how I did perhaps put strain on the exhaust system and made a crack somewhere. From what I see on the forums this could cause some major power loss too. I might try and do a seafoam smoke treatment thing today but honestly I am not sure how to do that. Just dump in some seafoam in the gas?

 

[hornsfan10609]

Pull the vacuum hose for the brake booster and pour the seafoam slowly into that line while the car idles, when you have about half the can in the engine pour more seafoam to kill the engine or turn the engine off with the key and let it sit for a while, then start it up and drive it hard for about 5 minutes. There are multiple markings on the cam gears and it's hard to tell if the belt is on perfect but it's easy to tell when it's running.

 

[SlpMsp]

Right after you put the t belt on did you do a full 2 turns of the crank to see if your marks were straight?

 

[Flspeed]

Are you sure your using the right marks. If you still have it apart just post a pick. Make sure your definitely at TDS, if you just look for number one to come all the way up you could be at TDS on number three. Use the crank to ensure proper TDS. What your describing sounds like your 180 out.

 

[Spiced MSP]

IIRC, there is a mark on the crank pulley already. It should be yellow and there is a spot with tickmarks on it. Line up the yellow mark on the crank pulley with the big tickmark labeled "T" I think. Then check the position of the cam gears.

 

[Flspeed]

^ What he said. FYI the best way to position your cams while installing the belt and tensioner is to use two wrenches, one on each cam where you can fit a open end wrench and use a pair of vice grips to pin the wrenches together after you get the cams in the proper position. This will ensure that the cams dont slip out of position due to lifter spring pressure.

 

[iammoen]

Alrighty everyone. You were right. The timing belt was off. I am honestly not quite sure how I did it to be honest but I was 3 TEETH OFF! Holy crap. It was 3 teeth advanced.
#1 I am surprised the dang thing ran at all let alone doing fine at idle.
#2 I am really surprised I didn't break anything by having the timing advanced that far on an interference engine
Edit: I just now read on this site that these 2.0L engines are actually NOT interference... posted by user Slavrenz. Is that accurate?
#3 I am not sure what marks I was using but my dad helped today and he was immediately like, "well there's your problem."

Once again it runs great. In fact it idles better than it did when I got the car (couple months ago). Has anyone ever heard of people advancing the timing a tooth to get more power or something strange?

@Flspeed- The wrenches and vice grip idea was great. I was trying to do something like that on the sprocket end but having that on the hex actually on the cam shaft was awesome. Made things WAY easier to put on.

@Spiced MSP- As it turns out yes there is a yellow dot that would line up well with a "t" on the plastic timing belt cover. It also has a couple gradations to the left going all the way to "10" which would be 10 degrees advanced I'm sure.

I really wish I had pictures of the marks lining up so that I could post them on here in hopes someone else wouldn't make the same mistake as me. I had found a couple threads details exactly those marks but it appears that the pictures themselves have been stripped away and the shop manual is less than details with which marks to actually use. Regardless. Thank you so much guys for your input. It helped tremendously. If you are ever in St Paul MN I'll buy you a beer (assuming you are of age of course!

 

[Spiced MSP]

Glad everything worked out

 

[Flspeed]

I have done the same thing before. If you let the cam slip a little it makes for a nightmare. Glad to here its all good.

 

[jdwk]

I think something similar happened to me. I had read this post before I started and I took extra care to keep the cams aligned. After the new belt was on I spun it many many times and it appeared fine.

However, when I started the car today finally, I heard a noise like a bad bearing. I had replaced the idler and tensioner so I thought maybe one was bad. I immediately shut it down, but couldn't see anything wrong. Of course, you can't see much with the timing covers on. So I took a chance and fired her back up. Before I could really tell where it was coming from, the noise disappeared. It did sound like from within the timing covers, but I am not certain.

Perhaps the new bearings were breaking in. However, even after the noise disappeared the idle was very rough. Normally when cold it will shoot up to 1500 or so and gradually work it's way down until it steadies at 900 and then 650 when totally warm. But the idle was bouncing around a few hundred rpms. I let her sit and warm up to see if it smoothed out, and it stabilized to about 900rpm but the tach remained jittery and the engine is definitely shaking more than normal. It seems like about a 25-50 rpm jitter around 900.

I broke out my timing light, but I am not sure what the crank is supposed to look like with the probe on the cyl 1/4 ignition wire. The missing tooth appeared to be at bottom dead center, but also very wobbly.

I went back out just now to see if I could get a video of the tach at least to see the jitter I am referring to, and now it doesn't want to idle. I can keep it alive with the throttle, but then you can't see the jitter. Perhaps the car heatsoaked a bit and now it has switched to low idle. I guess there is the possibility of a vacuum leak somewhere, but I checked everything I could think of and there is no CEL.

It's past 3am now, so I'll have to work on it tomorrow after work. I guess the first thing to do is remove the covers and take a look, but I am afraid if I remove the valve cover I'll ruin the brand new gasket, and I'll have to go buy another $25+ gasket.

 

[tweety2300]

If your carefull you won't mess up the gasket I didn't replace mine when I did the timing belt

 

[jdwk]

Yeah, it should be ok. It hasn't really seen a lot of heat yet. I'll replace the RTV I put in the corners though.

 

[jdwk]

The more I think about, the more it seems like a misfire. I am wondering if one of the plug wires just isn't seated properly on the plugs.
The cams being off wouldn't cause the jitter on the tach. A misfire would explain why the markings on the crank pulley wobble with the timing light. I just figured that would cause a CEL.
I am really temped to call it a day and go home to check it out.

 

[jdwk]

the plugs looked ok. cylinder 1 looked kind of wet at the base of the threads but the tip looked normal so I don't think it is misfiring.

It is reacting with the same behavior as last night. RPMs start off high fluctuating wildly, then settles to lower and lower rpm but the tach needle is jittery.

I took a video this time, tried to get the sound of the engine and then the tach needle bouncing. It's pretty subtle in the video, but clearly not running correctly. Maybe I am off just a couple notches like the OP. Although, that doesn't really explain why it won't idle at all once it is warmed up. That kind of points to a vacuum leak.

 

[pbarton14]

So my waterpump just went out on my 2003.5 mazdaspeed protege so I replaced it and the timing belt. When I got it all back together the car started up fine and idles mediocre (it has always idled a bit low when cold but does it more now).

However when I get on the throttle the engine doesn't rev like it used to. Much more sluggish. When accelerating the car feels like something is retarding the timing or something. When I do 80% throttle or so my boost gauge will go up to 0 and then gradually boost a little bit higher. But it isn't smooth. It's like you can hear the engine working hard and you can hear the whooshing of the turbo but it feels like I lost 100hp.

Any ideas? I really don't think I missed a tooth when putting the timing belt on but if the crankshaft was one tooth offset from the camshafts how would the car run? Would one tooth off make it do what is happening above or would the car pretty much not even run? Is there some sensor not working? I removed and reinstalled the camshaft sensor and the crankshaft position sensor during the belt change and perhaps one of those isn't working currently somehow?

Any ideas would be greatly, greatly appreciated! Thank you!

how did the car drive before it warmed up?

 

[jdwk]

So just like the OP, my cams were off. I lined both of them up one notch down equally. The marks aligned but lower than the center of the wheel. It's impossible to get perfectly level with the cams, and I eyeballed it as best I could and guessed wrong. So I essentially advanced the intake and retarded the exhaust, and I think this caused overlap between the intake and exhaust, which made it idle horribly. I know overlap can cause an engine to make more power up top at the expense of idle speed and low rpm drivability, and I did actually notice the car smooth out if I gave it some gas.

Does anyone know the stock cam specs for the FS? I think there are 42 teeth on each cam sprocket. So one notch would advance the cam by about 2 degrees. If the cams only have 4-5 degrees of separation, I could have caused overlap with just by being one or two teeth off.

I haven't seen a lot of experimentation with cams on the MSP, since it is much easier to just run more boost. But I wonder what the NA guys have tried, since unlike a pushrod V8, you can change overlap without a whole new cam.

Anyways, it is running as smooth as it ever has now. I've still got some stuff to do while it is in the air. Have new headlights, and trailing arms still to put on. Also, I need to flush the coolant a couple times to get out any rust that has accumulated while it's been sitting for the past month. Maybe I can get her back on the road by Wednesday. It would not be a wise bet though.

 

[hornsfan10609]

Good to hear it's together again, I know this has happened to me after a timing belt change, i'm sure it has happened to almost all of us.

 

[jdwk]

Yeah Mazda really should have done something more obvious than those two little hash marks. The only other timing belt I've done was on my KL MX6, and I don't remember it being that hard. Of course, I should have clamped the cams before I took the belt off originally.

When I was in Napa the other day I saw a timing belt clamp. It was shaped like an hour glass to slide between the cams with teeth on its edge to hold them in place.
I should have bought it, but you never see those things until after you need it.