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[70]

I had been keeping up for some time on the MSP. Originaly the plan was 7 PSI or 6.9. All of the initial tests were doen on these cars. However they proved on reliable and the later beta testers were tweaked down to 5.9. This is when SCC got theres to play with.

Explain to me how they got 155 whp running 5.9 psi?? No way, not on that turbo kit. The Mazdaspeed is running more boost with less volumetric efficiency than the FM Turbo kit. Plain and simple.

And explain the 170 SAE net rating v 155 whp? No way the tranny has ~9% power loss.

What Mazda tells the press and what really happens are two different things entirely.

 

[1sty]

Where did you get the 155whp?
170 HP has been the listed expected power since before the MSP was even built.

At 6 PSI even with an uneffiecent I/C 155 would be possible. We are seing more then that from FM which is using the same boost. Also they don'h have the luxury of a reprogrammed ECU and bigger injectors so the FM kit is in know way tunable to the level the MSP is right from Mazda.

 

[70]

I'll admit, it's not unreasonable considering that the T28 is inefficient, and the intercooler they use is also inefficient. And in turbo systems, efficiency is the key to lots of power at low, cooler boost. So, no, 9psi isn't unreasonable. But, I have read several different places thet the turbo is set at 5.9psi or whatever, so until some proves it wrong, which they haven't yet, that's what I'll believe.

At 5.9 psi, there is no way SCC got 155 whp...No way.

PS - I'm on day shift today, so I'll be playin' all day!

 

[big_ben]

What it comes down to is NO ONE will know the boost level until the car is realeased to the public for sale, someone buys one, then installs a boost gauge and then, we will finally know. The parameters of the motor are probably still changing as we speak. The motor setup can be constantly changed until the car is on the lots for sale. Hell, if they wanted to, theycould swap to a rotary before they release it, in fact, that's the latest rumor I've heard.

 

[70]

Where did you get the 155whp?
170 HP has been the listed expected power since before the MSP was even built.

At 6 PSI even with an uneffiecent I/C 155 would be possible. We are seing more then that from FM which is using the same boost. Also they don'h have the luxury of a reprogrammed ECU and bigger injectors so the FM kit is in know way tunable to the level the MSP is right from Mazda.

Sport Compact Car got 155 whp in their test drive I thought. What did they get?

But the FM kit has better volumetric efficiency, which is why it puts down more pwoer with less boost. The only person who has read the VE part of this is Keith and he understands what I am getting at.

 

[70]

What it comes down to is NO ONE will know the boost level until the car is realeased to the public for sale, someone buys one, then installs a boost gauge and then, we will finally know. The parameters of the motor are probably still changing as we speak. The motor setup can be constantly changed until the car is on the lots for sale. Hell, if they wanted to, theycould swap to a rotary before they release it, in fact, that's the latest rumor I've heard.

Yeah, isn't going to be rear-wheel drive. I thought that is whyit was being delayed to release to dealers...

 

[LinuxRacr]

Sport Compact Car got 155 whp in their test drive I thought. What did they get?

But the FM kit has better volumetric efficiency, which is why it puts down more pwoer with less boost. The only person who has read the VE part of this is Keith and he understands what I am getting at.

You're not that far off. They got 151 hp on their dyno to the wheels, and 150 ft-lbs of torque. I'm reading it right now in the October 2002 SCC. BFD...right?

To recap:

*No one will know for sure until the car arrives, and we start our own tests
*Everything right now, no matter the source is speculation
*It's cool that folks on this forum can converse inteligently without getting out of hand.

 

[big_ben]

I understand what you are talking about with volumetric efficiency. Does anyone know the VE of the MSP turbo kit. It has a stock intercooler that's on the euro turbo desiel so the data must be out there somewhere.

Really and truly, I could kinda see 150whp from the MSP. The car already puts down about 107 without the turbo. That's only 43 extra hp to the wheels. That's not that much. Also, have you noticed the design of the manifold on the MSP? It looks lik a very efficient design. It is a MUCH more straight path than that of the FM manifold. That by itself could be the rusult of the 150whp. We have already seen how better flow characteristics can help this motor respond to boost. Terry has dynod his car at 6.7 or so psi. He got 203 at the wheels. You have to remember that the ECU is also different on the MSP than that of the current proteges. There are lots of factors that are being ignored. And the the manifold is a huge factor.

 

[1sty]

Sport Compact Car got 155 whp in their test drive I thought. What did they get?

But the FM kit has better volumetric efficiency, which is why it puts down more pwoer with less boost. The only person who has read the VE part of this is Keith and he understands what I am getting at.

We may have a more effiecient intake stage but we can't tune the car worth s***. Knock, knock, sound familiar. Thats your engine calling. The MSP has been completely retuned with proper fuel curves and injectors to compensate. No voltage clamps, no extra FPRs or under powered fuel pumps to deal with. We have air effiecency they have tuner effieciency which is a hell of alot more powerful. Timeing, Fuel even the knock sensor can be better used on that car. I would expect that car to be getting 190 crank hp at this point.

Also that 170 like I said before has been listed for over a year now. I think Mazda kept it low incase becuase of the back lash the Sentra SE-R and Tiberon got for over qouting. Once relaease it will proably get set a little higher.

 

[1sty]

Terry's car is kind of the missing link. He runs alot more power then us with the FM kit becuase of a few better parts ad especialy becuase of his tunablity. The MSP even shames his setup in that department becuase the ECU can do it all.

 

[Keith@FP]

You know, all that really counts is the hp to the wheels. That's what you can actually use. So whether it's 4 psi or 14 psi, the important thing is 155 whp. The press release I have from Mazda doesn't give a boost level.

Mazda has told us the engine is good for 10 psi. I'm sure it will stand higher boost levels for a short period. We share the same philosophy as Mazda does - the upper limit is defined over a long term. For exampe - you can run a Miata engine at 18 psi or more without anything blowing up. At least, not right away. But keep a spare in the garage. At 12 psi, it'll run for years. That's why we say the Miata BP engine is good for 12 psi.

Keith

 

[big_ben]

Here is the secret to Terry's success. He is using the Link piggy back, therefore he can alter the timing and the fuel to what he wants. He can't alter the stock fuel injection, but a lot of people don't know that he has 4, count them, 4 additional injectors that are mounted on his intake runners and not on the intake tube. His Link controls those 4 extra injectors. Also, he has a much larger custom fuel rail for his stock injectors. He is of course using his tubular manifold, and he has a 3" straight through exhaust with no, thats right, no cats. So basically, Terrys car is a street driven race car that doesn't have a full stand alone ECU. I know he is probably going with a stand alone in the future, when that happens, expect to see him reach around 250whp at around 8psi only.

 

[70]

We may have a more effiecient intake stage but we can't tune the car worth s***. Knock, knock, sound familiar. Thats your engine calling. The MSP has been completely retuned with proper fuel curves and injectors to compensate. No voltage clamps, no extra FPRs or under powered fuel pumps to deal with. We have air effiecency they have tuner effieciency which is a hell of alot more powerful. Timeing, Fuel even the knock sensor can be better used on that car. I would expect that car to be getting 190 crank hp at this point.

Also that 170 like I said before has been listed for over a year now. I think Mazda kept it low incase becuase of the back lash the Sentra SE-R and Tiberon got for over qouting. Once relaease it will proably get set a little higher.

The MSP is running the same stock fuel pump, and only larger injector to deal with fuel. Yes, they have the ECU to compensate, however, the rest of turbo system is junk, well, rather not as efficient.

 

[1sty]

They have a better stock exhuast, who knows if the cats are the same. The extra injectors avoid any issue of the fuel pump and the timing and fuel curves are completely different. HENCE THEY CAN DO ALOT MORE s*** THEN WE CAN EVEN IF THEY ARE LESS EFFIECENT!!!!!!!!!!

 

[big_ben]

Manifold design, Manifold design, Manifold design, Manifold design, Manifold design, Manifold design, Manifold design, Manifold design, Manifold design, Manifold design, Manifold design, Manifold design, Manifold design, Manifold design, Manifold design, Manifold design, Manifold design, Manifold design, Manifold design, Manifold design, Did I get my point across?

 

[Keith@FP]

Manifold design isn't the only thing. Turbo sizing, IC efficiency, fuel and timing control all play significant roles.

Keith

 

[big_ben]

I understand that, but in this case, I believe that their manifold design plays a big role in where they are getting their power from.

 

[1sty]

I'd say its the tunability of the car.

 

[LinuxRacr]

Time to start a new thread on the subject...in the Mazdaspeed section...oh wait, there already is a similar thread:

http://www.protegemp3.com/vbb225/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9718

 

[70]

They have a better stock exhuast, who knows if the cats are the same. The extra injectors avoid any issue of the fuel pump and the timing and fuel curves are completely different. HENCE THEY CAN DO ALOT MORE s*** THEN WE CAN EVEN IF THEY ARE LESS EFFIECENT!!!!!!!!!!

The MSP has the same stock exhaust of the MP3, minus one catalytic converter...There are not extra injectors, just slightly larger than the stock Protege.

Yes the ECU can handle with it better, but it can't over come that much inefficieny that comes form the intercooler and the msaller turbo. The FM design is more efficient, and runs less boost and makes more power than the MSP.

The MSP runs more boost, has less VE, and makes less power than the FM kit. This is proven by the numbers that have been made so far.