WTF? IS this fo'-real?
- Thread starter LinuxRacr
- Start date
The ESC runs on a completely seperate electrical system. I try to point out that the car's original battery serves only to start the car and the alternator takes over and powers any cars accessories and needs while recharging the battery to a full state of charge. The ESC operates in a similar way. The ESC is a 24V system, while a typical car is 12V. Until the industry switches to 42 volts starting in 2006 the 12V system is what we have to work with.
The two 12V battery packs or batteries (depending on whether you have two Ultimas or four Oddysey) are recharged as two 12V circuits and then with relays running 12V in series make the 24V circuit for supercharging. The Ultimas are good batteries, but their technology is 12 years old. The Oddysey tech is only a few years old. The newer battery design is more efficient and smaller. Some of the BatCap batteries are 800amp 24 farad 10 second discharge units and weigh 5lb--I am going to run those on my Neon ESC race car-- I will be running six of those for 72V and 800amps for 10 seconds as that is how fast the Neon will be in the 1/4 mile. I have computer modelled the DOHC 420A motor to produce 45-475hp.
I applaud the scepticism as it makes people think and ponder whether this can work. The foolish ones with the 'it cant work--its a POS' are too ignorant to get the facts.
The weight is higher than I would like, but here is how I have trimmed it to 80 extra lb on my Altima. The original battery weighs 42lb. The ESC weighs 42lb, so if the battery is removed and the ESC bolted in that location we have a wash on weight. I run four 13lb Odyssey to power the ESC and one to power the car. That is 5 X 13 or 65lb. Add the cables and relays and you have 80lb. The typical turbo kit weighs 90lb, so it is lighter than a turbo kit. The typical supercharger kit is about 70lb, so it is not much more than one of those.
If one of your friends weighs more than the ESC--I bet you wont kick them out of the car the next time you are challenged at a stoplight. At 8lb = 1 hp that is not a huge power loss.
I am trying a large capacitor and dropping one battery so the car runs off of one of the ESC batteries. The alternator must have a WOT cut-off to do this as trying to get additional power from the alternator would overheat it quickly.
The 2002 Ranger being fitted this weekend with the ESC has the Optima batteries (red top) and we will try the capacitor on that vehicle.
I encourage anyone to ask any question and I will try to answer it.
BTW, the average life expectancy for the ESC-400 is 40 years or 1/2 million miles--no kidding!!! That is based on 15 runs each day of fifteen seconds (3.75 minutes a day). The motors have a 1000hr average lifespan while the Eaton part have a 2500hr expectancy. Do the math on that.
The two 12V battery packs or batteries (depending on whether you have two Ultimas or four Oddysey) are recharged as two 12V circuits and then with relays running 12V in series make the 24V circuit for supercharging. The Ultimas are good batteries, but their technology is 12 years old. The Oddysey tech is only a few years old. The newer battery design is more efficient and smaller. Some of the BatCap batteries are 800amp 24 farad 10 second discharge units and weigh 5lb--I am going to run those on my Neon ESC race car-- I will be running six of those for 72V and 800amps for 10 seconds as that is how fast the Neon will be in the 1/4 mile. I have computer modelled the DOHC 420A motor to produce 45-475hp.
I applaud the scepticism as it makes people think and ponder whether this can work. The foolish ones with the 'it cant work--its a POS' are too ignorant to get the facts.
The weight is higher than I would like, but here is how I have trimmed it to 80 extra lb on my Altima. The original battery weighs 42lb. The ESC weighs 42lb, so if the battery is removed and the ESC bolted in that location we have a wash on weight. I run four 13lb Odyssey to power the ESC and one to power the car. That is 5 X 13 or 65lb. Add the cables and relays and you have 80lb. The typical turbo kit weighs 90lb, so it is lighter than a turbo kit. The typical supercharger kit is about 70lb, so it is not much more than one of those.
If one of your friends weighs more than the ESC--I bet you wont kick them out of the car the next time you are challenged at a stoplight. At 8lb = 1 hp that is not a huge power loss.
I am trying a large capacitor and dropping one battery so the car runs off of one of the ESC batteries. The alternator must have a WOT cut-off to do this as trying to get additional power from the alternator would overheat it quickly.
The 2002 Ranger being fitted this weekend with the ESC has the Optima batteries (red top) and we will try the capacitor on that vehicle.
I encourage anyone to ask any question and I will try to answer it.
BTW, the average life expectancy for the ESC-400 is 40 years or 1/2 million miles--no kidding!!! That is based on 15 runs each day of fifteen seconds (3.75 minutes a day). The motors have a 1000hr average lifespan while the Eaton part have a 2500hr expectancy. Do the math on that.
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Ok, so the ESC requires an extra battery, but that battery is charged from the car stock altenator?
So, basically the regular altenator is trying to run all of the electronics in the car and charge two batteries?
Most car manufacturers run an altenator that can only run all of the power accesories at once for a short period of time. It seems to me that the extra load palced on the altenator might put an extar strain on the electrical system, particularly when you hit the "boost."
So, how will this effect the electrical system of a car over time? I realize this hasn't been really tested as it is a new product, but would you suggest a "larger" altenator?
So, basically the regular altenator is trying to run all of the electronics in the car and charge two batteries?
Most car manufacturers run an altenator that can only run all of the power accesories at once for a short period of time. It seems to me that the extra load palced on the altenator might put an extar strain on the electrical system, particularly when you hit the "boost."
So, how will this effect the electrical system of a car over time? I realize this hasn't been really tested as it is a new product, but would you suggest a "larger" altenator?
I have a counter on my site that points to where people come from. I like to visit and see what they have to say. Most are nice and have educated people giving arguments on one side or the other about whether the ESC can work or not.
However on some, there are those who choose to bring up tired and already proven to be false stories about my products from other boards. I must have pissed several people off--especially the Probetalk guys, cause they are the ONLY people in this world who seem to hold on to something that has been proven I never actually built--about ten years ago.
OK--The average alternator is 85 amps. Factory AC cars are usually fitted with at least an 85 amp unit, and the newer the car the higher amp they usually have. An old Toyota Corolla from 1982 would only have a 40amp unit. So you are correct--factories design the alternator to support the total amperage used by the AC, fans, lights, wipers, stereo, etc if all are working at the same time. With mechanical radiator fans long gone, and the resulting dual electric fans on all FWD cars, and electric windows and locks standard on most cars the amps are reaching 100amps--even on the basic car. So if you have the AC on, a custom high amp stereo, the lights, wipers, and every conceivable accessory going you may only have a 20 amp reserve. That would take a longer time to recharge the batteries.
Modern alternator design allows them to recharge faster that older styles, and the fact is that factories have had to make more efficient alternators to keep up with the short runs we now all take to the corner store. They also run cooler and are rated lower that what they are actually capable of doing. If the diode pack and rectifier were changed on a modern unit the amp rating would likjely go up 20-30 amps.
This would be beneficial to the ESC batteries in that they will take a faster charge than a standard battery. If the alternator is rated at 100 amps, it can run 100 amps for 10-15 minutes and will finally start to heat up. With the smaller lightweight batteries that charge in a few minutes there is no concern of overheating the alternator. What would happen is that the batteries would simply take longer to get a full charge. Batteries like the Odyssey charge at a high rate for a few minutes, and then taper off till fully charged.
However on some, there are those who choose to bring up tired and already proven to be false stories about my products from other boards. I must have pissed several people off--especially the Probetalk guys, cause they are the ONLY people in this world who seem to hold on to something that has been proven I never actually built--about ten years ago.
OK--The average alternator is 85 amps. Factory AC cars are usually fitted with at least an 85 amp unit, and the newer the car the higher amp they usually have. An old Toyota Corolla from 1982 would only have a 40amp unit. So you are correct--factories design the alternator to support the total amperage used by the AC, fans, lights, wipers, stereo, etc if all are working at the same time. With mechanical radiator fans long gone, and the resulting dual electric fans on all FWD cars, and electric windows and locks standard on most cars the amps are reaching 100amps--even on the basic car. So if you have the AC on, a custom high amp stereo, the lights, wipers, and every conceivable accessory going you may only have a 20 amp reserve. That would take a longer time to recharge the batteries.
Modern alternator design allows them to recharge faster that older styles, and the fact is that factories have had to make more efficient alternators to keep up with the short runs we now all take to the corner store. They also run cooler and are rated lower that what they are actually capable of doing. If the diode pack and rectifier were changed on a modern unit the amp rating would likjely go up 20-30 amps.
This would be beneficial to the ESC batteries in that they will take a faster charge than a standard battery. If the alternator is rated at 100 amps, it can run 100 amps for 10-15 minutes and will finally start to heat up. With the smaller lightweight batteries that charge in a few minutes there is no concern of overheating the alternator. What would happen is that the batteries would simply take longer to get a full charge. Batteries like the Odyssey charge at a high rate for a few minutes, and then taper off till fully charged.
TKTurbo dropped all turbo kits in favor of Eaton supercharger kits. Turbos have a high failure rate--no matter what someone tells you, it is 16% fail in 24 months of NORMAL use. Racing almost doubles that to 28-30% failure in two years or less. That is Gredd*, Turbo**tics, etc etc etc.
Eaton units have a 158,000 mile AVERAGE life expectancy. That is over 10 years. From a reliability standpoint there is no comparison. The instant boost, quiet operation, and durability more than make up for the 2-3% difference a turbo MAY make.
I use the Eaton unit in my ESC and then race port it to fully follow the best flow it can make. I also still make an Eaton belt driven kit for the 3000GT, PGT, MX6, Freelander, BMW 325, etc.
IF you port an Eaton correctly you lower the delta rise by over 70 degrees at 8-9 psi. That raises the AE (adiabatic efficiency) to way over 80% up to 10 psi. The JR guys know this--but dont want to hand port every Honda kit they sell. It would raise the kit price by $1000. Go study what Endyne has to say about the EA as well as ZZ Performance:
http://www.theoldone.com/articles/damaged-blower/index.html
http://www.zzperformance.com/zzp/info/info_blowerporting.htm
Eaton units have a 158,000 mile AVERAGE life expectancy. That is over 10 years. From a reliability standpoint there is no comparison. The instant boost, quiet operation, and durability more than make up for the 2-3% difference a turbo MAY make.
I use the Eaton unit in my ESC and then race port it to fully follow the best flow it can make. I also still make an Eaton belt driven kit for the 3000GT, PGT, MX6, Freelander, BMW 325, etc.
IF you port an Eaton correctly you lower the delta rise by over 70 degrees at 8-9 psi. That raises the AE (adiabatic efficiency) to way over 80% up to 10 psi. The JR guys know this--but dont want to hand port every Honda kit they sell. It would raise the kit price by $1000. Go study what Endyne has to say about the EA as well as ZZ Performance:
http://www.theoldone.com/articles/damaged-blower/index.html
http://www.zzperformance.com/zzp/info/info_blowerporting.htm
boostisgood
Member
- :
- 1988 FC3S TII
Care to explain how a Turbo is Parasitic ? What pulleys does it run off of ? I have yet to find the pulley that drives my turbo.
EDIT: AGain, Im not going to punk you out, just post my opinion. The electris SC is just not capable to create the same power output as a real SC or Trubo. No physics involved, its pure ENGINE building knowledge.
EDIT: AGain, Im not going to punk you out, just post my opinion. The electris SC is just not capable to create the same power output as a real SC or Trubo. No physics involved, its pure ENGINE building knowledge.
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ATSTurbo was changed to TKTurbo in 1997. My site Thomas KnightTurbos.com and Boosthead.com were both registered in 1996. Boosthead is easier to remember (boost from SC or turbo, and head from gearhead--guys who worked on cars at shops, etc)
If and when you hear anything about me--just think about this. I sold over 800 turbo kits and supercharger kits worldwide for the Probe GT and MX6. Most were supercharger kits. I have sold over 200 of the 3000GT supercharger kits. Yet one or two of the same people always seem to bring up something bad to say about me. It can be quite frustrating.
If and when you hear anything about me--just think about this. I sold over 800 turbo kits and supercharger kits worldwide for the Probe GT and MX6. Most were supercharger kits. I have sold over 200 of the 3000GT supercharger kits. Yet one or two of the same people always seem to bring up something bad to say about me. It can be quite frustrating.
boostisgood said:
Good question, and one that if you really look at the answer you will know to be true--but physics would be helpful in proving it.
A turbo operates by taking all the exhaust gasses that normally exit the engine and they spin and turbine that in turn spins a compressor. In theory that would be great, and non-parasitic.
A turbo needs two things to operate the turbine. Volume and pressure to spin the turbine. You cant compress air by simply spinning a compressor--even at 300K rpm it does NOT compress it--it becomes a FAN. Now the extra heat of the exhaust crates move volume, but unless there is PRESSURE there is no boost. Cant argue with that.
In the turbo tech circles the amount of 'pressure' needed to turn and compress air is called the exhaust-to-intake pressure ratio (PR). A typical turbo in a production car or kit is between 1.7:1 and 3:1 PR. The 300ZXTT had a 2.7:1 PR so at 10 psi boost the exhaust manifolds had 27 psi of pressure--that is PARASITIC LOSS. The best race cars in the world get below a 1:1 ratio--Indy, F1, track only drag race, etc all still have BACKPRESSURE. You are forcing under oressure ALL exhaust gasses through a tiny hole (the typical T3 A/R of .48 is about a 1 sq inch opening)
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But running the altenator for an extended period of time to recharge batteries is parsitic loss as well...
And air heats up when it is compressed...
And air heats up when it is compressed...
Little Beavis
Member
- :
- 2001 MP3-T (#911)
And I see in typical forum fashion we are trying to lynch a new vendor. . .mush like HiBoost and MPI. The "love" we share on this forum is enough to make me want to #$%^ vomit!
While I cannot speak from personal experience about his work, you can find information that shows he has been doing this for some time. . .and if he was really that bad would he have lasted.
Anyway, here's some pics of his work. . .
3000GT
3000GT again
Avenger
BMW 325
BMW 325 again
While I cannot speak from personal experience about his work, you can find information that shows he has been doing this for some time. . .and if he was really that bad would he have lasted.
Anyway, here's some pics of his work. . .
3000GT
3000GT again
Avenger
BMW 325
BMW 325 again
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Little Beavis
Member
- :
- 2001 MP3-T (#911)
Some more. . .
Mazda ?
Impala
Jeep (4.0L)
Probe
Probe again
And yes, I feel a little bit like a "knight" myself in that I'm forced to defend someone when I see something "unjust". . . I feel sorry any time someone offers us something new. Unless the person is Terry or Nick (perfworks) it must be crap!!!!
Mazda ?
Impala
Jeep (4.0L)
Probe
Probe again
And yes, I feel a little bit like a "knight" myself in that I'm forced to defend someone when I see something "unjust". . . I feel sorry any time someone offers us something new. Unless the person is Terry or Nick (perfworks) it must be crap!!!!
DooMer_MP3
Member
Little Beavis said:
I agree somewhat. But the whole MPI thing was a bit ridiculous. The mudslinging between the two Nicks, and MPNicks INITIAL reluctance to answer questions with specific information was not a good thing.
I applaud atsturbo's knowledge here and ability to stand up for himself with some FACTS about the workings of his product. It must be hard for him given the bad rep he has gotten from the Probe/Civic world.
Chris
wait..so..is the electronic supercharger thing for real? because it looks craptastic
Well, we have done it!! We took the Nissan Altima with a stock 2.4 4-cyl to South Florida Performance yesterday and ran it at 8 psi with the ESC-400DR (drag race version). Original stock hp was 105 when we tested it a month ago, and we added a header and exhaust giving 115 wheel hp this time. Running 8 psi we saw over 208 wheel hp. That is almost DOUBLE the stock hp at only 8 psi with the ESC and exhaust.
