Why you should go AccessPort with any sort of mods

C

chimmike

Member
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'07 MS3
View attachment 23psilog.xls

This is my big turbo. 93 octane, no e85, no meth. Tune is still a work in progress, but I have complete flexibility to fine tune ignition timing to create earlier spool and better top end power, VVT adjustments for spool, air/fuel rratio perfecting, boost targeting, wastegate duty cycle tuning, etc.

Hypertech just can't do ANY of that. Plug it in, get the tune, that's all you get from a Hypertech. No flexibility.

Spend the extra couple hundred and buy the AccessPort, then read Cobb's guide and use the new OTS maps and practice logging. You'll easily gain hp over a hypertech with the same mods just by perfecting your tune.

BTW, my car should be making between 360-390whp right now. I'm at just over 90% injector duty cycle so I'm very close to stock injector limit!
 
^That's all well and good, but there are some folks not doing heavy mods. For minor bolt-ons(SRI/CAI,DP,RP,TMIC), HT is a good move. For big turbo, of course, the tunability of the AP is required. Congrats on your achievement, but be careful not to make your MS3 a casualty.
 
OP, in your situation with a BT then no doubt about it - Hypertech will not work, you won't get anyone to disagree there.

For others running bolt ons with the K04 the Hypertech offers a safe canned tune that's hands off and much less expensive than a AP. I mean that in comparing the AP to the Hypertech apples to apples the AP is overkill in that if you bought an AP to run the OTS tune for modest bolt ons. There are many out there who are hands off who just want to flash and go and run a stage1 because their mods aren't enough for a AP OTS stage 2. For them they are not utilizing the AP for what it can offer and are overpaying for what a Hypertech can offer for much less money. With the Hypertech being a conservative tune there is really no need for checking logs because the AFR's are conservative. If fully bolted, using a Dashhawk can provide vital fuel pressure data to see if internals are needed but if fully bolted and needing to replace HPFP internals (or new CPE pump)still does not require a tune. And when running a Hypertech & Dashhawk combo the cost is still less than running a AP and paying for a tune.

For others who run the K04 and own an AP and want to tune with an AP need to either spend the time in learning how to tune in ATR or they will blow their s*** up or pay to get their car tuned. Sure there is help on the forums in reading logs and getting help adjusting parameters in ATR in order to avoid the cost of a pro tune or paying less for a Perm tune over at the other forum but the fact of the matter remains: the cost of AP + time investment to learn how to tune themselves with help or added cost of someone else tuning their car (Perm or Pro) is just too much money and/or time some are willing to spend for what may be a negligible gain in HP between a bolted K04 car on an custom tuned AP and the same car on a Hypertech tune.
 
boosted1 said:
^That's all well and good, but there are some folks not doing heavy mods. For minor bolt-ons(SRI/CAI,DP,RP,TMIC), HT is a good move. For big turbo, of course, the tunability of the AP is required. Congrats on your achievement, but be careful not to make your MS3 a casualty.
Click to expand...

An AP will gain you more horsepower for the same mods over a hypertech every single time.
 
jv92red said:
safe canned tune
Click to expand...

Safe? Well, with an intake alone, sure. But I see people here running downpipes, full bolt ons with the hypertech. It's not made for that and just not safe, period.

FWIW, I'm still on stock exhaust manifold and cat-back exhaust, too
 
HT runs you pig rich. HT is acceptable with a intake and exhaust, but I don't trust it for anything else.

FWIW, I'm running a stock tune after running a HT. I miss the power in the 1st 2 gears, but nothing else. I like the way the car feels more on the stock tune. I asked for a Cobb for Xmas.
 
All points are valid here but the AP was actually designed for EVERYONE, not just big power. You can literally take your car to a whole new level with it without having a single mod other than AP. We all know that there are some guys that only plan on "intake and exhaust" then somehow they end up with a front mount intercooler, then a downpipe, and it goes on and on. Both the HT and AP will be great for minor mods but the AP can be utilized in ANY situation including custom pro tuning or just basic flashing. So if you feel there's a chance you could go past the 2 or 3 basic bolt-ons at any point in the future, the AP is superior.

Not saying something doesn't work well, just making the comparison and making sure everyone understands the broad range of capabilities of an AP.
 
I disagree that the hypertech isnt safe. I also agree that if you plan on going full bolt on to get the ap, which i believe most people do. I have yet to see anyone use the hypertech with full bolt ons. And I think MSMS3 will chime in and agree that it is safe with some bolt ons. I know he has a downpipe and other mods and runs fine. As far as my mods go I only have an intake, after xmas I will have a test pipe, and tp, but I will stay with my hypertech.
 
Someone with a HT please buy my Dashhawk....you know you need it to monitor. I'm not knocking HT I just wanna sell my DH so I can get an AP haha. I think the HT is good an all but I think I like having the ability to adjust my tune at any time or go have a pro tune done.

By the way...BUY MY DASHHAWK
 
chimmike said:
Safe? Well, with an intake alone, sure. But I see people here running downpipes, full bolt ons with the hypertech. It's not made for that and just not safe, period.

FWIW, I'm still on stock exhaust manifold and cat-back exhaust, too
Click to expand...

What is your basis for this conclusion? Have you actually looked at the numerous .csv logs for various degrees of mods up to fully bolted on stock turbo over on the "other board," including mine there? Have you tested HT yourself? Just wondering.

Since I'm not sure members here can "see" a .csv file on this board, I'm attaching a pdf version of one taken recently.

Please let us know what is "unsafe" with this can-o-tune data log running a fully catless 3 inch dp/rp, CAI, colder plugs, etc.? BTW: Virtual dynos by me on this tune with thse mods on that other board are showing consistent power/torque per Dynojet configuration of 300-310/300.

BTW 2: I've recently added AutoTech internals, but the above log was made on the stock pump.

HT has proven itself to be effective and safe with any and all bolt on mods as long as you stay with the stock turbo.
 

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MSMS3 said:
What is your basis for this conclusion? Have you actually looked at the numerous .csv logs for various degrees of mods up to fully bolted on stock turbo over on the "other board," including mine there? Have you tested HT yourself? Just wondering.

Since I'm not sure members here can "see" a .csv file on this board, I'm attaching a pdf version of one taken recently.

Please let us know what is "unsafe" with this can-o-tune data log running a fully catless 3 inch dp/rp, CAI, colder plugs, etc.? BTW: Virtual dynos by me on this tune with thse mods on that other board are showing consistent power/torque per Dynojet configuration of 300-310/300.

BTW 2: I've recently added AutoTech internals, but the above log was made on the stock pump.

HT has proven itself to be effective and safe with any and all bolt on mods as long as you stay with the stock turbo.
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well, for one thing, your MAF g/s with that datalog is TERRIBLE for the mods you have. Awful. I'm only assuming you're going WOT with that info because I can't tell otherwise what the hell I'm looking at, the whole file is outta whack, not lined up, and missing other critical info. I don't see AFR's anywhere, and I don't see throttle duty cycle......I'm guessing KR is the 2nd from the right, which shows me you're getting KR. but you don't have the capability to tune that out. Or mess with ignition, or up target fuel pressures (because they should be with your upgraded internals), nor do you have the ability to tune wastegate duty cycle or target more boost. Hitting 14psi at 6000rpm ain't doing you any good, that's pretty much where you'd be on stock tune, lol.

Frankly for all the mods you did, the HT didn't do squat. Probably better off using stock tune and datalogging with the HT until you can replace with an AP. I'd be willing to bet an OTS map would have your MAF g/s in the 240 range.

Look at the datalog I posted. All the critical info you need to monitor, in an order you can understand, in 100rpm increments. Your increments are every 300rpm, so there may be points elsewhere that you're getting kr and don't know it!

Frankly, you're not proof that the HT is safe, and you're definitely not proof that the HT is helpful beyond an intake. Argue all you want, but someone with your mods and an OTS map on AP would walk you.
 
That run was BEFORE internals.

KR is either zero or .4 with the occasional .7 on that run. None of that is harmful to the engine, and is typical of many, many AP datalogs. I have others taken on different days with different ambient conditions that will show all zeros.

MAF g/s is being measured accurately, but g/s is not a true measure of actual engine power. There's a LOT more to it. There is no reliable g/s to horsepower conversion factor because of this.

If you look at the time slip on the far left and at the mph you will see that this is a 4th gear run. The car scoots from 61 mph to 102 (equivalent to a 60-100 mph time) in 5.6 seconds on that run. Think about that for a moment. Someone running AP with OTS or even Stage 2 custom maps on the stock turbo had better plan to run 60-100 mph quicker that 5.6 seconds.

AFR's are here in this chart on the far right. They are expressed on that particular chart a percentage of BAR. Multiply the number times 14.7 and you'll have your AFR ratio.

The chart is only "out of whack" because this board does not allow uploading of .csv files. I had to "print" an abbreviated .csv to pdf to post it. The full datalogging is over on the other board -- several of them posted.

Throttle position is here too, right in front of your eyes. SAE TP Absolute: Just what one would expect for WOT - 85-86%

Wastegate duty cycle is here too, nicely ranging between 55% and 70%.

Spark advance, absolute load, long term fuel trims, calculated exaust gas temps, AAT's BAT's all right there on the posted chart. Nothing unsafe is there? It is interesting that HT does actually use more aggressive timing that OTS AP maps, and perhaps a bit more than many Stage 2 custom AP maps I've seen datalogging on. That is their work-around to build power while deliberately keeping AFR's very rich under full load at high rpm.

ScanXL Pro can datalog about 300 parameters simultaneously. That is what I use. I had a LOT of different parameters being measured in that full .csv and that's why resolution was only ever 300 rpm. I can post the whole .csv on another board or email it to you. Is there something on that run that I left out that you might want to see?

Are you trying to tell me that just because you don't like the g/s measurement that this is an unsafe tune? What are your 60-100 times in 4th gear, btw? Let's get real.
 
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JP@edgeautosport.com said:
"All points are valid here but the AP was actually designed for EVERYONE"
Click to expand...

Really? So anybody can just get the AP, read the manual overnight, then next day "tune" the crap out of the car and then a couple of months down the road, you hear engine detonation like there is no tomorrow... oopppssss I guess you just forgot to change a variable in the tuning and now your engine is on life support... I know this is an exaggeration but so is this statement above... especially coming from a vendor. I am sure they only sell AP and don't carry HT. I wouldn't call this an "unbiased" opinion...! In essence, the AP is NOT for everyone... Not everyone has the skills to tune the car SAFELY...especially with DI...

I have tuned the crap out of my Turbo Miata with Flying Miata Link and even Tec II. Those are waay more sophisticated than the AP but I got tired of it and now I love the simplicity of the HT on my DD. If I ever decide to go BIG Turbo (I doubt it) then the AP will be my option.

AP vs HT... When will this end? (deadhorse
 
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When someone blows a motor as a result of the HT or it's proven unsafe.

Probably never sums it up, though.
 
If OP had limited his recommendation to applications with big turbo installs, larger maf housings, blow through MAF setups, custom tubing and piping sizes, non-stock manifolds, engine internal modifications and other mods beyond simple bolt-ons, I'd be singing his praises and whole-heartedly agreeing. But the broad sweeping statement was way over the top and suggestive of being a product fanboi.

AP is an excellent product. In the hands of knowledgeable people with experience in tuning, it is a powerful tuner that can produce slightly better performance with bolt-ons at the risk of making some potentially unsafe mapping choices. With the kind of heavy modding mentioned in my first paragraph, and in OP's big turbo setup, it is THE way to tune. HT is not even in that game and does not attempt to be.

But one careless mapping mistake with AP can produce a blown engine. And it can happen in a blink of an eye to even the most experienced users. One need only ask one of the most knowledgable and skilled of the members of that "other" board who accidentally loaded the wrong map after making some major engine mods. He was very honest about what caused the blown engine.

Since this thread is about AP and its benefits, I would not want to give it its proper due, something some AP users absolutely and shamefully fail to do when jumping into threads about HT reviews and HT experiences. With that, I'm done with this thread.
 
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Pololo_MS3 said:
Really? So anybody can just get the AP, read the manual overnight, then next day "tune" the crap out of the car and then a couple of months down the road, you hear engine detonation like there is no tomorrow... oopppssss I guess you just forgot to change a variable in the tuning and now your engine is on life support... I know this is an exaggeration but so is this statement above... especially coming from a vendor. I am sure they only sell AP and don't carry HT. I wouldn't call this an "unbiased" opinion...! In essence, the AP is NOT for everyone... Not everyone has the skills to tune the car SAFELY...especially with DI...

I have tuned the crap out of my Turbo Miata with Flying Miata Link and even Tec II. Those are waay more sophisticated than the AP but I got tired of it and now I love the simplicity of the HT on my DD. If I ever decide to go BIG Turbo (I doubt it) then the AP will be my option.

AP vs HT... When will this end? (deadhorse
Click to expand...

LMAO. If you tune the car, and everything is good, you don't just 'develop' detonation down the road, it doesn't appear out of nowhere unless you use s*** gas, and if you do that, it's not the tune's fault, it's your own. Also, the accessport does it's own datalogging of all possible params, well more than I had in my log above. But hey, if you tune it, run a datalog to check the tune, and see kr, then you go back, pull back on the timing, and you're fine. Oh, and if there is severe knock, the ECU pulls timing by itself to prevent detonation.........you know, because it's sophisticated. But I'll talk sophistication later. Regardless, someone doesn't need to **** around with ignition timing to make decent power on stock turbo with pump gas. Use an OTS map, do a couple MAF calibration logs. Calibrate the MAF, set AFR targets to 11.8:1 or 12:1, up the boost and wastegate duty cycle to hold boost on the factory turbo to redline better (only the '11's and '12s so far seem to hold more than 20psi to redline.....turbo upgrade we think) and you've already made leaps and bounds in gains over the HT. And you haven't touched ignition timing or VVT, or anything else, really.

Tec II more sophisticated than the FACTORY ECU in the Mazdaspeed? You pretty much just blew your credibility on mazdaspeeds right out the ******' window. AP isn't the control of the car, it's a reflash/tuning tool that allows you to flash tunes to certain tables on the factory ECU, and not even all tables as Cobb is constantly working on getting access to more tables as it sees fit for users and as they further crack the ECU. Does the TEC II handle a direct injected car running fuel pressures at/above 1600psi at WOT? With individual coils per cylinder allowing ignition control DOWN TO THE CYLINDER? pshh. Right. And a miata ain't no MZR DISI, so don't even compare them. We're running factory MAF/MAP combo, etc. Tell me, can the TEC II hit specifically targeted air fuel ratios just by calibrating a MAF?

Also, it's obvious you have no experience with the Accessport, but in it's various uses, R35 GTR's are tuned to make over 1000whp via AP. Cobb knows exactly wtf they're doing, and their support of this platform is, frankly remarkable. Accessport has pretty much made tuning something anyone with patience can do successfully.

Btw, I'm not a vendor.
 
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