What turbo to just extend the powerband

Mid_Life_Crisis

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2007 MS3
This is purely one of those intellectual exercises (mental masturbation if you prefer) as I so do not have the money for this.
From everything I have read, the primary reason the MS3 has the abrupt drop off in power in the upper rpms is because the turbo can`t flow enough air to make power at those revs. If you force it to, it doesn`t make more power, it just essentially overheats and self-destructs.
What turbo would represent the best bargain if you wanted to go to a reliable unit that would overcome this problem and extend the power to the redline, with no real concern as to making significantly more power in the rest of the rpm range, just broadening the powerband in general? Obviously there would be an overall improvement, but that isn`t the primary goal.
 
This may not help, but I know plenty of people who simply run intakes and Forge BPV's who lose hardly any boost if any at all, 5500+ even. Thats a simple fix, otherwise i'd imagine 1 or 2 steps larger of a turbo would be safe.
 
The easy way to answer this is say: upgrade to a GT2871R (http://www.protegegarage.com/product_info.php?cPath=160_251&products_id=1213)

The why is a little more complicated, but I'll do my best to be concise about it.

ms3compressormap.jpg

This is the compressor map for the Mazdaspeed3's K04 turbo. This is a 3D graph where the inner rings represent the area where the turbo's efficiency is highest. You have to look at this as a 3-dimensional equation.

The Y-axis of the graph represents your boost level and the X-axis represents the engine's air flow (this is determined by an equation accounting for the engine's displacement, volumetric efficiency, boost air temperature/pressure, engine RPM, etc, etc, etc).

An OEM manufacturer is going to choose a turbo that offers high efficiency at WOT but maintains a usable powerband down low for driveability. Inevitably, power down low comes at the expense of the up top power.

Anyway, looking at the map, you can see how at relatively moderate air flow and 2.1 bar (which is right around stock boost) you're at the peak of that center ring. As your RPM increases your engine is moving more air, so you're moving in a positive direction down the X-axis.. and eventually you're completely outside the efficiency of the turbo.

So, thinking laterally, say you turn up the boost to 2.3 bar (~19lbs)... you're still in a decent efficiency, but you're flowing more air.. so the point where you're starting on the graph is already further down the X-axis and you're still bound by the run-out of efficiency.. essentially, you're getting more power- both faster and stronger, but you're looking at degrading horesepower returns, more engine stress, and even more inefficiency at the top of the powerband (this is a debatable comment on this car because you are making more power and the map does compensate pretty well for "overboost" by extending the air flow range, slightly, at higher pressures).

Essentially.. making a powerful turbo car hinges around affecting that airflow equation in as positive a way as possible. Colder air, better flow, etc.. will all aid the power in coming on sooner.. but you need a comiserate turbo that will be able to handle that power at the upper end- which the K04 can not.

So, enter the GT2871R.

GT2871R_743347_2_comp_e.gif

This is not the exact map for the ATP bolt on, but it'll get the point across.

You can see how the efficency area is focused on higher boost levels than the K04- you're going to run into that high efficiency ring up to around 23psi. It is a very good choice for a "stock turbo replacement" because it best fits the profile of a lightly modified car.

To help you understand this.. consider this situation:
An MS3 running on a hot day in vaccum at 3000rpm is moving roughly 7 pounds of air a minute. Find 1 bar on the Y-axis and identify where 7 lbs/min sits on the X-axis.

Now you go WOT- and say that by 3750rpm you're at 19psi. At that point the engine is flowing roughly 20lbs/min. So, you should find 2.3 bar on the Y-axis and 20lbs/min on the X-axis and mark that point.

Draw a line between the two and that is your spool. This will occur quickly because you're very decently inside the map the entire way up. The left side of the map is called the surge limit and you're best suited to a turbo that spools and operates in that zone as little as possible.

Taking it a step further, holding your 19psi to the 6700rpm redline your engine is going to be running about 35lbs/min. So, draw a line straight across from your 20lbs/min mark to the 35lbs/min.. and there you have it.

You're looking at a run from mid-70 percentile of efficiency across the peak of map and back by redline you're still in a very high efficiency area of the turbo.

So, the 2871 gives you great down low power and response, and will continue to make power for you as you continue modding/flowing more air. It's not a huge bump in power, but it more than suffices as a ball-bearing, drop in replacement that is going to be a long term, reliable option.
 
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I wish we had a "Thanks" option like on the other forum because i'd definitely be thanking Doc's post!!!! Great explanations!!
 
Do people that have the 2871 say to themselves "I wish I had gotten the 3071 and detuned it?"

The more I search and read, the more I see that the 2871 (for $1.5K + Exhaust Mani $500 + Another tune $500) isn't that much power extra over the stock turbo??

Does the 2871 really put a smile on your face?

Feedback please.
 
Actually the reason why you can't get much power past 6k is due to CAMs. Our CAMs limit the ability to make the power past 6k. If you look at upgraded BT cars they still drop power past 6k. Cobb did a writeup on this when everyone claimed the AP should give up power to redline. Cobb did a long writeup on why this is not the case and how our CAMs are what stops us from getting power to Redline.

Good news is that I think there are some CAMs for our car now. I haven't researched it in a while but I remember reading somewhere that someone was working on them.
 
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3071dyno.jpg


This is a GT3076 dyno where, yes, the power does drop off at redline. My point with the above post is that you're atleast removing the turbo as a restriction.

The entire head, not just the cams, could do with improvement... but no one that I'm aware of has made cams that do anything except float the valves. Head work and intake manifold would theoretically allow you to alter the torque curve enough to make make great power at redline... but we're all pretty much playing the waiting game now.
 
Do people that have the 2871 say to themselves "I wish I had gotten the 3071 and detuned it?"

The more I search and read, the more I see that the 2871 (for $1.5K + Exhaust Mani $500 + Another tune $500) isn't that much power extra over the stock turbo??

Does the 2871 really put a smile on your face?

Feedback please.

Oops, forgot to mention installation costs, which is probably another $500, so we're up to $3K for a turbo upgrade.
 
Protege Garage had some regrind cams in testing that turned out to not do that much for the car to be worth the cost of development, or so what I remember about it.

So completely new profile cams would have to be tested to see if it helps out and to get a company to commit to a small platform is very unlikely...

Still a relatively new platform and finding the restrictions will take time, whether it be fuel, tuning or air.
 
dont waste your time with a GT28. get a GT3076

you will get board of the GT28
 
you can still pull power to redline if your turbo is big enough i call bs that cams are the restriction, i can show you a bunch of big turbo dynos where they pull to redline
 
"Head work and intake manifold would theoretically allow you to alter the torque curve enough to make make great power at redline... but we're all pretty much playing the waiting game now."

Great explanation regarding the turbo maps and compressor efficiency. I've always thought this car might benefit from some head port work on the exhaust side as well as a small turbo upgrade. I think the factory matched the stock motor with the right compressor however.

I would prefer to improve the airflow of the motor first to increasing boost or running a bigger turbo as the boost is simply a measure of pressure as a result of restriction in the motor.

I would think porting the head, the waste gate, and running a DP RP would be a good start, as well as something like the 2871 or even a worked K04 from some place like PG but I have not heard of anyone here getting port work done on an MZR head or seen any results from it.

Is the factory intake much of a restriction?
 
I mean the intake manifold itself. I figure there is restriction in the TMIC as well as the intake manifold but I don't know where the "cork" is in this motor otherwise.

Has anyone bench flowed the intake and exhaust ports of a MZR head ? What about the stock intake manifold? Any numbers out there?
 
stock manifold and head is capable of over 400 hp worth of airflow i will find the info

OP if you want more power get a tune. I hold power to 6200 rpm. It does taper off the last 500, but not dramatically so.
 
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Well I have run some better numbers.

Stock:
Int: 200cfm @ .500" = 205.6hp @ 28" H2O
Exh: 165cfm @ .300" = 169.6hp @ 28" H2O

Ported:
Int: 265cfm @ .500" = 272.4hp @ 28" H2O
Exh: 200cfm @ .300" = 205.6hp @ 28" H2O


1 atmosphere is 14.7psi.
If 28" H2O is ~1psi then the absolute testing pressure is 15.7psi
Our target boost is 21psi + 14.7psi is 35.7psi absolute boost pressure
Then if we divide our target pressure by our test pressure we get a ratio of 2.27
If we take our test CFM and multiply by our pressure ratio we get:

Stock:
Int: 454cfm @ 21psi
Exh: 374cfm @ 21psi

Ported:
Int: 601cfm @ 21psi
Exh: 454cfm @ 21psi

If we assume that the head is the largest restriction, then we can use the formula Peak hp = Head Flow CFM * .257 Correction Factor * 4cyl. This only works for the intake though.

Stock:
Int: 466hp @ 21psi
Exh: formula doesnt work

Ported:
Int: 617hp @ 21psi
Exh: formula doesnt work

Now if we take the stock exh CFM and divide it by the stock int CFM we get ~ .82 which is a good ratio for a boosted application.

Now if we take the ported exh CFM and divide it by the ported int CFM we get ~ .75 which is crap for a boosted application because the exhaust is becoming a restriction before the int side hits full flow.

The porter mentioned that he gained 20cfm on the exh side if he used clay in the bowl, if we add that cfm and divide it out we get a ported ratio of ~ .83 which is very close to stock.

Even though these are some fairly huge generalizations, I think I want that extra 20 exh cfm
 
For TheDoc's thoughts:

Here is a volumetric effeciency analysis done by a member on another board, in the attached pdf file. He seems to be using a different compressor map for the K04 and reaches a conclusion that the choke line is even lower than you suggest and that even stock boost levels cannot be maintained at 6,500 rpm regardless of tune.

I'm confused. Are you both saying the same thing in different ways, or if you have differences in your calculations, where are the differences, and what does this mean. I sense that either calculation means that there's not a lot left in the stock K04 for operation above about 5,800 rpm or so.
 

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