What EMS systems are there?

[Bigg Tim]

As I see it, we have to be honest about the system. First, it's simply how I do business... and second, I'll end up with seriously pissed off customers if they get the system and it doesn't something that I'm not forward about from the start! I am finding it harder than expected to get customers to listen to what I tell them to do with the system to correct problems... you would think they'd listen when you are trying to help... but not so much!!

From my experience with helping people with the MPI, I would NEVER think they would do what I ask them to fix it. All too many times people will half ass it or not do what they said they did. Come to find out, when what was suggested was done, the problem is fixed.

I'm not saying everyone I have helped has done this, but with so many MPI's out there, the precentage has grown. Offered help is only good if it is taken and done like what was said!

 

[TurfBurn]

Yeah.. you guys have dealt with that a lot... it irks me because someone will blame it on it being a standalone or claim it's not doable... and the simple fact is they just aren't doing what needs to be done. You guys see it all the time, and I'm seeing it as well. One of the reasons you have to be careful about what accusations are made against systems or methods etc... often hard to tell how much is tuner fault versus system.

 

[MPNick]

Sorry Nick, but that first sentence is complete and utter bull. We've proved otherwise multiple times now. The car starts and idles and yields good throttle response from a dead cold start in sub freezing temperatures and does not stall or bog when driving it. Plain and simple.

As far as the second sentence I have not compared graphs but at my 12.5 psi I yielded 268 ft-lbs of torque by 4,200 rpm's and started at 3,000 rpm's with over 150 ft-lbs before the turbo even spooled at all...

I have yet to see this be true, I will hold my opinion on your car until I see it first hand. BTW what is your cold start idle? What is your hot base idle?

We made something 285 torque to the ground with 13psi. I do not think .5psi would get you has much as we make.

 

[TurfBurn]

I have yet to see this be true, I will hold my opinion on your car until I see it first hand. BTW what is your cold start idle? What is your hot base idle?

We made something 285 torque to the ground with 13psi. I do not think .5psi would get you has much as we make.

Well the exhaust issue I had/have would probably easily make up the difference... we'll see in a few months hopefully. (My exhaust is so screwed up from what Terry had done on it that it stalls the turbo at 14 psi and can't make more boost no matter what... THAT is what you call an exhaust restriction. It was also in 101 degree ambient on the 29th run with 12 degrees of timing pulled out... I would reasonably say I have the torque available.

I run my idles different than Keola and Dave... they run at about 800 rpm's.. I run a base hot idle at 950 rpm's and a cold idle at 1100.

I may fire up the car this weekend to cycle the fluids on it... so I'll video it if I get a chance...

 

[MPNick]

Well the exhaust issue I had/have would probably easily make up the difference... we'll see in a few months hopefully. (My exhaust is so screwed up from what Terry had done on it that it stalls the turbo at 14 psi and can't make more boost no matter what... THAT is what you call an exhaust restriction. It was also in 101 degree ambient on the 29th run with 12 degrees of timing pulled out... I would reasonably say I have the torque available.

I run my idles different than Keola and Dave... they run at about 800 rpm's.. I run a base hot idle at 950 rpm's and a cold idle at 1100.

I may fire up the car this weekend to cycle the fluids on it... so I'll video it if I get a chance...

Yes we had it very hot our day also. Maybe with more tuning we could have also. OK so you need to run a higher idle with the big dogs to keep it running smooth. What about tail pipe testing? What would happen then? Would you pass? We have the BAR90 testing on the dyno, we pass without any problems. Can you guys pass? How do you get around the drive cycles test and the no check engine light test?

 

[TurfBurn]

Yes we had it very hot our day also. Maybe with more tuning we could have also. OK so you need to run a higher idle with the big dogs to keep it running smooth. What about tail pipe testing? What would happen then? Would you pass? We have the BAR90 testing on the dyno, we pass without any problems. Can you guys pass? How do you get around the drive cycles test and the no check engine light test?

I run a higher idle because I like the faster warmup, that's it. 800 rpm's is within stock specification per Mazda. I had one guy idle the car at 300 rpm's until he figured out that sucked for warm up and bogging because the motor can't spin it's rotating mass up very well from that low of a speed.

We've never claimed anything regarding emissions or CEL- we can't pass them, and we pop a CEL currently. Not something I've worked on and one of the things I've always said to go MPI if it was a concern. We are going to work on it eventually and then we'll see.

If you want to play the questions game:

1) Why does the MPI show visible steps in AFR between cells in the tune? Don't deny it, I've seen it personally.

2) What is your absolute timing curve? What are the throttle response and boost correction values and how are they affected when the stock ecu shifts timing curves?

3) How do you compensate for timing drift induced by detected knock or other timing shift situations that the stock ECU decides on?

4) Care to explain to everyone how the MPI can ONLY advance timing if it bases itself upon predictive timing where it has to wait for one or more cylinders to show a timing value before it can actually determine the variation it needs to induce in the spark signal, thus meaning the MPI will have to always lag the changes in stock timing signals by one cycle to be able to attempt a timing advancement... Also, the dwell times will often suffer because the signal can't be initiated earlier, only terminated earlier, which then leads to misfires from poor spark.

5) how about using low impedance injectors?

6) Nitrous or water input correction?

 

[03.5MSP]

The MPI will give you all you need for those numbers. The MAP sensor IMO is not the way to go. I recently tried it to turn on the switch and help with the xtra injector control and it did not work for me as well as the original way. I had a 3 bar MAP sensor and we think the resolution of the map was not fine enough. It just didn't do it for me, but good luck with it on your setup.(thumb)

thank you for your response. And that is why I wil be going with the mpi. There are many guys like Bigg Tim that have knowledge about the MPI, and can always help me if i run into any issues. Plus I dont live far from MPNick, and he will probablly be doing most of the tuning on the mpi, and I am confident that once we have it tuned my msp will not have issues putting down about 230whp.

 

[TurfBurn]

thank you for your response. And that is why I wil be going with the mpi. There are many guys like Bigg Tim that have knowledge about the MPI, and can always help me if i run into any issues. Plus I dont live far from MPNick, and he will probablly be doing most of the tuning on the mpi, and I am confident that once we have it tuned my msp will not have issues putting down about 230whp.

I'm sure they will take care of you and you will be well on your way to your goals! Good luck!

 

[MPNick]

1) Why does the MPI show visible steps in AFR between cells in the tune? Don't deny it, I've seen it personally.

What do you mean between the cels

2) What is your absolute timing curve? What are the throttle response and boost correction values and how are they affected when the stock ecu shifts timing curves?

We can retard up to 44 degrees. Unlike with any standalone, we are not starting from nothing. So we work with the stock timing curve.

3) How do you compensate for timing drift induced by detected knock or other timing shift situations that the stock ECU decides on?

When you adjust the timing so you do not have knock, the timing will not drift.

4) Care to explain to everyone how the MPI can ONLY advance timing if it bases itself upon predictive timing where it has to wait for one or more cylinders to show a timing value before it can actually determine the variation it needs to induce in the spark signal, thus meaning the MPI will have to always lag the changes in stock timing signals by one cycle to be able to attempt a timing advancement... Also, the dwell times will often suffer because the signal can't be initiated earlier, only terminated earlier, which then leads to misfires from poor spark.

You are half right here or as like to put things better, you are wrong[ but only half wrong]. The timing does not work as you think it does. The misfire part may happen on the turbo cars, but not on the NA MPI.

6]Nitrous or water input correction?

Not sure what you question is here. However, we can control nitrous and we can correct fuel base on water temp input.

 

[MPNick]

5) how about using low impedance injectors?


I see no need to take a big step back and run the old low impedance injectors. None of them flow as well of a spray pattern as the new high ohm units. Any how they can be run on the extra injectors if need be.

 

[spacemonkey]

<--- emanage...mainly for custom tune over timming and fuel. And since it is Greddy almost every tuner shop knows how to use it.

I just havent installed it.

I would have gone microtech but the emanage was so cheap. Microtech was not proven yet. I would have also gone MPI.

as for the emanage...A bit confusing to install. And now I just have to figure how what to do with the MAF sensor or MAP sensor. and get off my lazy ass and start sodering.

Another consideration was that I didnt want anything big because this is my daily driver. I dotn want to spend too much money on it.

 

[Bigg Tim]

1) Why does the MPI show visible steps in AFR between cells in the tune? Don't deny it, I've seen it personally.

Not sure I know what you are talking about. You say the AFR's are different between 1 box and another? Like how different? I have dyno files of a pretty much FLAT AFR line, so if you are saying the AFR can't be tuned right, then you are absolutly wrong.

Nick is the man for the rest. You CAn control timing properly with it. I have mine set so the J&S never lights up, and this isn't because I have too much out. I added timing until it lit, then I backed a degree out wherever needed, so I'm just under where it would detect knock. So I'm not sure I'm follwoing on the timing drift. If I don't add my torco to get the fuel up to 94 octane, I see the J&S flicker a bit, so that tells me I'm right where I need to be timing wise for the 94 octane.

 

[TurfBurn]

5) how about using low impedance injectors?


I see no need to take a big step back and run the old low impedance injectors. None of them flow as well of a spray pattern as the new high ohm units. Any how they can be run on the extra injectors if need be.

flexibility.. a lot easier to get your hands on varieties of low impedance injectors and keeps you from having to be strapped into one variety and also helps you keep your options open and costs down.

 

[Mental Addiction]

To date the MPI has made the most whp and by far the most lowend torque.

Your 310whp at 15psi was on a heavily modded Protege. It was running a built motor, ported head, ported intake, race gas, intercooler sprayer and a nice cool day.. We made 296whp at 15psi on PUMP GAS, STOCK HEAD,STOCK INTAKE and a hot AZ day..[/quote]

This is a big deal for an everyday street car. It seems the big injectors car not only have problems with running clean at idle, cold starts and low speed drivablity. They also do not make the lowend torque as the MPI with extra injectors. This is pound for pound of boost. Also we are street legel. You can pass any state testing that you have when tuned right.

Spoken like true 80's technology.. Extra injectors are a thing of the past. Many many cars come from the factory with 450cc+ injectors and do all that you say they can't. Today's day and age we have standalones that will do just about anything you want. They do not use a piggyback with resistors to FOOL stock sensors and ECU into believing something else. Imagine what happens when your stock sensor goes bad. MPI FOOLER

 

[MPNick]

flexibility.. a lot easier to get your hands on varieties of low impedance injectors and keeps you from having to be strapped into one variety and also helps you keep your options open and costs down.

As far as the Protege goes we do not need to look very far for injectors. We keep the stock one where they belong and then add extra ones as needed. The extra ones are not that ard to find and they are cheep.

Also the spray pattern on the newer units are very good.

 

[TurfBurn]

1) Why does the MPI show visible steps in AFR between cells in the tune? Don't deny it, I've seen it personally.

What do you mean between the cels
I'm talking about how between one cell point (say a given MAF value at 3,000 rpm's, and the next rpm up) and another I've watched the wideband hop a couple tenths (or more) of an AFR point. I've heard it from other people as well... at the resolution of the maps that the MPI has and with the mathematics it uses it is not able to eliminate the hops in the AFR. And regarding Timm's later post... any time you look at an AFR curve on a dyno sheet it will look prett smooth.. they show nowhere near the detail that an AFR gauge yields... and even AFR gauge logging is usually not at a rate high enough to show all the hopping that occurs.


2) What is your absolute timing curve? What are the throttle response and boost correction values and how are they affected when the stock ecu shifts timing curves?

We can retard up to 44 degrees. Unlike with any standalone, we are not starting from nothing. So we work with the stock timing curve.
So that's great, you have no idea where you are, but you can retard it out if you need to! But you have no idea how much you've retarded, you are basically left with relying on trying to finagle it out of the dyno graph or to push the car until it detonates and then pull timing back and "hope" it doesn't do it agian... And because you work with the stock timing curve if it shifts due to external factors like a knock detection or a safety built into the ECU or a water temp change that you haven't accounted for your ENTIRE timing map in the MPI just shifted to a new location where it may or may not need more advance or retard.

So unlike a standalone you have NO idea where your timing actually is on any given day.


3) How do you compensate for timing drift induced by detected knock or other timing shift situations that the stock ECU decides on?

When you adjust the timing so you do not have knock, the timing will not drift.

If you force the MAF reading to be scaled or affected in any way, it will drift, if you alter an IAT reading sent to the stock ecu it will drift, if you alter a water temp reading, it will drift, if you change the AC on or off, it will drift, if you change the fans that are on, it will drift, if the car alters the EGR duty, it will drift. If it detects a misfire, it will drift.

Have you read the timing control system schematic for the motor?

Here it is straight from Mazda's manuals:

See that column called electronic spark advance? And see all the check boxes for the things that affect it... yeah... YOUR TIMING WILL DRIFT.

4) Care to explain to everyone how the MPI can ONLY advance timing if it bases itself upon predictive timing where it has to wait for one or more cylinders to show a timing value before it can actually determine the variation it needs to induce in the spark signal, thus meaning the MPI will have to always lag the changes in stock timing signals by one cycle to be able to attempt a timing advancement... Also, the dwell times will often suffer because the signal can't be initiated earlier, only terminated earlier, which then leads to misfires from poor spark.

You are half right here or as like to put things better, you are wrong[ but only half wrong]. The timing does not work as you think it does. The misfire part may happen on the turbo cars, but not on the NA MPI.
Then explain to us all how it does. Essentially all piggybacks use one of 3 things to control timing and/or fuel: 1) MAF voltage modulation, 2) Predictive alteration, or 3) signal delay/modulation of cam or crank sensors.

So either the MPI can't advance timing, or it works roughly the way I said it did.


6]Nitrous or water input correction?

Not sure what you question is here. However, we can control nitrous and we can correct fuel base on water temp input.

I mean the ability to correct timing and fuel as needed when external events like nitrous or water injection are activated. So that when auxillary systems are added to the car that the corrections for their impact on the motor can be made independently.

 

[MPNick]

Your 310whp at 15psi was on a heavily modded Protege. It was running a built motor, ported head, ported intake, race gas, intercooler sprayer and a nice cool day.. We made 296whp at 15psi on PUMP GAS, STOCK HEAD,STOCK INTAKE and a hot AZ day..

Yes it had all that, plus a cast MSP manifold that you say sucks. It had a small intercooler and 12 degrees of timing out. We went there hopeing to run 20psi. We could only hold the wastegate to 15psi. The turbo is also a stock MSP unit with our stage I upgrade. It also made almost 340 torque to the wheel.

Now you run a much bigger turbo, a much bigger intercooler, a super whammy header and downpipe. Big injectors and a standalone that shuts down after a few hours because it over heats.

So you make less hp then us, about 15whp. You also make about 60 less torque to the ground. Where is the problem here. I see that your set sucks for lowend and is as good at the topend.

 

[TurfBurn]

Also if you check around you can find a number of discussions by other vendors about the fact that the Perfect Power SMT6 (MPI Tuner) intercepts and re-modulates the DC square wave for the ignition coils... since the leading edge of the wave is the initiation of the dwell period and the drop is the negative trigger for the spark in the coil the only way to make that happen sooner is to drop the negative sooner which then cuts down on your dwell time...

Also, therefore for you to modulate that signal it needs to arrive and since you do NOT know the absolute timing you have no idea if that dwell period will start 10 degrees BTDC or 45 degrees BTDC so you can't initiate it yourself if you wanted... therefore you have to wait for it to show up at least once... I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that the MPI does it more intelligently than it likely does and assuming that it would "follow" the stock timing lagging by one cycle and advance timing by "assuming" the next timing cycle would be the same and initiate the dwell sooner and thus allow for a full dwell and proper trigger with spark advancement. But I may be "half wrong" and the MPI/SMT6 can't manage that and thus can only shorten the dwell.. which may explain why only MPI cars have seen ignition breakup in higher boost because their ignition power has dropped significantly.

 

[mazdaspeed75]

fd

Your 310whp at 15psi was on a heavily modded Protege. It was running a built motor, ported head, ported intake, race gas, intercooler sprayer and a nice cool day.. We made 296whp at 15psi on PUMP GAS, STOCK HEAD,STOCK INTAKE and a hot AZ day..

Spoken like true 80's technology.. Extra injectors are a thing of the past. Many many cars come from the factory with 450cc+ injectors and do all that you say they can't. Today's day and age we have standalones that will do just about anything you want. They do not use a piggyback with resistors to FOOL stock sensors and ECU into believing something else. Imagine what happens when your stock sensor goes bad. MPI FOOLER[/QUOTE] Man ole man This old 80s tech is making some serious power for me on a stock motor stock head stock turbo. Ok my ultimate goal is to prove this s*** with vid . Iam going to the dyno and going to get some races on vid. Nick get ready i may blow her up on the dyno . I know this 14 psi map is good for 230 plus and my tq even more I had 234 tq at 9 psi last dyno . Next dyno day here i will be going. Nick i will send you some datalogs of the map now so you can see if everything looks good before i go . I tell you guys Nick is straight forward on everything he has every told me . He will always have my business too . I trust him enough to build my motor when i live in Louisana and his in Nj . So he had proved himself to me . I cant even get any answers from many vendors on here . Nick always says "fire away " on the questions . Nick thanks again for all your help . Its great doing business with you and look forward to the build down the road . (glare) You cant win with Nick he is a Dam Yankee and i married one. You cant win . (hah) (first)

 

[MPNick]

Spoken like true 80's technology.. Extra injectors are a thing of the past. Many many cars come from the factory with 450cc+ injectors and do all that you say they can't. Today's day and age we have standalones that will do just about anything you want. They do not use a piggyback with resistors to FOOL stock sensors and ECU into believing something else. Imagine what happens when your stock sensor goes bad. MPI FOOLER

We did some work on a 2005 Ford GT a few months back. Before we did anything it made 540whp. With high flow cats and a new blower pulley it makes 585whp. BTW it has 16 injectors on it. Yes extra injector to add fuel as needed. The car is built by Ford to pass the New ULtra low standards.

Yes the OEM has some big injector in the cars these days. I work on the STIs with there 540?cc units. They run great with the OEM computer. I keep reading about how great the standalones are. So then why not show me wrong. So me a car that is make big power with a standalone, drives like stock everyday, keeps all of the factory emission parts[outside of high flow cats and exhaust] and can pass any state testing. Show me how wrong I am.