What cars do MS6's compete in class?

[psi365]

I would say the advantage to getting a fmic is more sir flow which is what the current tmic is severly lacking. Subies have the hood scoop to force air through it, Sti's even put a water sprayer to add to the cooling. THe tmic on the MS6 gets heat soaked which might be the entire reason for the lack of power in the first place. Come on it looks like they were ready to do a fmic from the factory on the MS6 with that large opening in the lower grille.

As far as upper scale crowd.....I see chipped 1.8t's and 2.7 BiTurbos all the time. I've seen 2 18 year olds get new S4's(back in 2000-01) and immediately chip them. Had a guy in his mid 30's mod his all up after 1000 miles.

Aftermarket support is a wonderful thing casue it gives you an option if there is something you don't like about your car. I don't know anyone that wouldn't want some more hp out of there MS6 do you? A cai maybe gives you an extra 5-10hp. THe fmic would maybe get you 20 more hp.

 

[CHICO2003]

Who doesn't see chipped 1.8Ts all the time? Everyone knows those cars are easy to mod. You later prove my point by mentioning the "18 year olds" that immediately modded their S4. (which, btw, is obviously in a different class than the MS6) The point is... as is the case with EVERYTHING in life, a few isolated incidents don't prove a thing. There will always be exceptions. I was talking about the majority of the people in the market for a MS6 and the cars it competes with. These people have no interest in modding their cars. If they did, there would be an aftermarket. supply and demand.

 

[psi365]

In your example you mention a guy with a A4 avant doesn't chip his car. I was just saying that to make any sense he would own a 1.8T or now a 2.0T. We have had lots of customers when the 2000-02 S4's came out would chip them almost imediately. The average age of an S4 owner that buys one new would be between their 30-40's. Same age target age group for the MS6. I would also say the 00-02 S4's are very comparable to an MS6 considering they are 2.7L twin turbo's, awd, 4dr sedan among other things.So right now its Mazda's aftermarket support that doesn't see a need to come up with a lot of mods for the MS6 cause they don't see a market in it. If there wasn't then why are there cai's, bov's, springs, etc then?

Isn't there a thread going about the average age of a MS6 owner? I thought I saw one, but mever looked at it.

 

[CHICO2003]

...Show me the business man who's intentionis to mod the hell out of his new A4 avant so that he can show those punks at the drag strip who's boss. These guys have better things to do with their lives! ...

That's what I really said.

First, a 5 year old S4 shouldn't be compared to a brand new MS6. Sure, they may be priced the same but the type of person who will be interested in them will be completely different. Afterall, Audi makes some of the least reliable cars on the planet. You'd have to either be a moron... or a "kid" who just wants to go fast and impress to buy one with 80k miles on it. You're just asking for trouble there. On the contrary, the more mature, intelligent person will see the value in buying a car that's arguably almost as good stock and obviously, neing new (and a mazda) offers a lot more reliability.

But I digress...

Here's the point. You're doing what so many people do... Taking a small sampling and perceiving that it represents the majority. You mention there being a poll somewhere on this board. That would be far from accurate as well. On average, who comes on boards like this? Mostly guys between the ages of late teens to maybe early 30s or so. Out of that mix, early 20s easily represents the largest %. For reasons we don't have to get into, this is the age group that takes to these message boards the most.

So let's say hypothetically I'm right about the MS6's avg customer... Let's say about 75% of them are crusty old farts (I'm exagerating) with the big house, big job, big family, big wife... etc. For reasons we don't have to get into, he's not coming on this board. So how can he vote??? Obviously this poll, wherever it is, isn't going to be accurate.

In reality, common sense must prevail. Why is there such a large aftermarket for the WRX and a non-existent one for the Buick Century? It's an extreme comparrison but it's meant to prove a point. The MS6, as much as I love the car, was never meant to appeal to the tuner crowd. For this reason, Mazda really can't be blamed TOO much for their unsupportive seats and heavy, unathletic ride. I and obviously most of you would probably like the car even more if Mazda had improved upon these things... but at the same time, that would come at a cost. (crusty old farts would complain about all the bumps they feel in the road with the tight suspension and their waste hurting from the heavily bolstered seats) This car has a specific target market in mind... Not the used S4 crowd but the new A4 crowd.... People looking for an awd, sporty looking and driving 4 door midsize that handles "well" and provides a good deal of comfort and touch of luxury. I say, when it comes to those things, Mazda hit it out of the park. But, as I've been saying all along, the type of people who are interested in these types of things generally aren't interested in modding their cars with chips and salsa and anything else they can find out there in the aftermarket.

 

[aftershock63]

this guy is out of his tree(loser)

 

[aftershock63]

ever have the idea that a company wants to create a new following with the car? Just a common sense thought.

I mean look at the MSP, who was really tuning protege's before then. Practically no one.

Once again just a common sense thought. Not that I woudl know or anything!

 

[psi365]

We have had lots of customers when the 2000-02 S4's came out would chip them almost imediately. The average age of an S4 owner that buys one new would be between their 30-40's. Same age target age group for the MS6. I would also say the 00-02 S4's are very comparable to an MS6 considering they are 2.7L twin turbo's, awd, 4dr sedan among other things..

I was comparing when the B5 S4's were new, not used. As far as reliablity with and Audi you are basing your response on what? Are you going to beat that dead horse issue of the ignition coils? Or maybe turbo's on S4's?(Funny that the turbos only seemed to go out on chipped S4's while A6 biturbos and allroads never had the same problem).You said that the LGT's interior was of higher quality then the MS6's, but Audi's interior light years above the LGT. Mazda made the MS6 to try to compete againist the euro cars. For the price they do. An MS6 has more power, and amenities then almost any euro car for the same price. For that price though you are looking at the lowest level euro car though. You'd be looking at a Volvo S40 T5, MB C230 (strippo), BMW 325i(strippo), or an A3 2.0T fwd.You might barely touch avery low optioned A4. THe people who buy those types of cars are the ones looking for a "luxury" image. That would be the late 20-ealry-mid 30 age group that are over extended on bills, and want to have the success image. The MS6 crowd wants more car for their dollar and could care less about brand recognition.

 

[Matt'sSpeed6]

The MS6 crowd wants more car for their dollar and could care less about brand recognition.

AMEN!!!

I could not agree more. Sure, there are prettier cars, better performing cars, and more luxorious cars out there. For my money, there is not a better choice for an all-around daily driver that must combine fun, practicality and comfort. Speed? Evo or STI. Brand Image? Used (sorry, certified) BMW. I do not want to look like some 31 year old trying to recapture his early 20's. Or some uppity prick just trying to impress someone else. I love the understated looks of the MS6. Ever notice how often your MS6 goes unnoticed?

I say NO to LGT. At 6' 1" 190lbs, the LGT did not fit me at all. Talk about uncomfortable. I never even gave that car a second look.

 

[CHICO2003]

I was comparing when the B5 S4's were new, not used. As far as reliablity with and Audi you are basing your response on what? Are you going to beat that dead horse issue of the ignition coils? Or maybe turbo's on S4's?(Funny that the turbos only seemed to go out on chipped S4's while A6 biturbos and allroads never had the same problem).You said that the LGT's interior was of higher quality then the MS6's, but Audi's interior light years above the LGT. Mazda made the MS6 to try to compete againist the euro cars. For the price they do. An MS6 has more power, and amenities then almost any euro car for the same price. For that price though you are looking at the lowest level euro car though. You'd be looking at a Volvo S40 T5, MB C230 (strippo), BMW 325i(strippo), or an A3 2.0T fwd.You might barely touch avery low optioned A4. THe people who buy those types of cars are the ones looking for a "luxury" image. That would be the late 20-ealry-mid 30 age group that are over extended on bills, and want to have the success image. The MS6 crowd wants more car for their dollar and could care less about brand recognition.

LOL I'm basing it on consumer reports data (which I read religously) as well as what people have told me. One of my best friends is a tech at an Audi dealership and even he tells me the cars are amongst the most unreliable around. (which is good for him)

As far as the interior goes... I agree 100%. You simply can't find a better interior. Audi/VW are about as good as they come.

Now then.... you make it seem like the people who buy Audi A4 avants merely buy them for the "prestige" of owning an Audi. While that's certainly a factor, I'm not sure that's the only factor.

Let's say you're a family man in your mid 30s and live in a northern climate. You make a decent living and consider yourself somewhat of a "car guy". You're in the market for a car in the 30k range that offers enough room for 4-5 and has good power. Because you've been brainwashed about the importance of awd, this is a must for your next car. Unlike the types you describe, the prestige factor doesn't factor into your decision that much. Obviously having a marquee name wouldn't be a bad thing, but it's not going to be the deciding factor.

So what are your choices? Without beating a dead horse, I think we all know by now what they are... For those who rode the short bus to school, I'm talking about the LGT, Audi A4 avant, and any other car that fits the criteria. Obviously it's a short list....

But what do these cars have in common? Though they both may be easy to mod, you don't see a ton of modded LGTs and (new)A4s.... You do, on the other hand, see a ton of modded Stis & S4s (their higher performance variants aimed for a 'different' crowd)

This is the point I've been driving home all along... it's not a bad thing! The MS6 simply wasn't designed to appeal to the tuner crowd. As I said before, the ONLY way the relative handful of MS6 owners who want to beef up their cars will get their precious aftermarket support is if the MS3 blows up. If not, you'll just have to settle for the CAIs and other "minor" upgrades that are already out.

Personally, (and I'm actually considering buying an MS6 right now) since I obviously represent the target market, I could care less about having a ton of aftermarket support. As a current MSP owner, I'm sort've used to it. After driving the MS6, I feel there is more than enough power to satisfy my needs. If I was the type that constantly needed more and more... I'd be looking at a WRX or EVO...

 

[psi365]

LOL I'm basing it on consumer reports data (which I read religously) as well as what people have told me. One of my best friends is a tech at an Audi dealership and even he tells me the cars are amongst the most unreliable around. (which is good for him)

Now then.... you make it seem like the people who buy Audi A4 avants merely buy them for the "prestige" of owning an Audi. While that's certainly a factor, I'm not sure that's the only factor.

Let's say you're a family man in your mid 30s and live in a northern climate. You make a decent living and consider yourself somewhat of a "car guy". You're in the market for a car in the 30k range that offers enough room for 4-5 and has good power. Because you've been brainwashed about the importance of awd, this is a must for your next car. Unlike the types you describe, the prestige factor doesn't factor into your decision that much. Obviously having a marquee name wouldn't be a bad thing, but it's not going to be the deciding factor.

So what are your choices? Without beating a dead horse, I think we all know by now what they are... For those who rode the short bus to school, I'm talking about the LGT, Audi A4 avant, and any other car that fits the criteria. Obviously it's a short list....

But what do these cars have in common? Though they both may be easy to mod, you don't see a ton of modded LGTs and (new)A4s.... You do, on the other hand, see a ton of modded Stis & S4s (their higher performance variants aimed for a 'different' crowd)

Personally, (and I'm actually considering buying an MS6 right now) since I obviously represent the target market, I could care less about having a ton of aftermarket support. As a current MSP owner, I'm sort've used to it. After driving the MS6, I feel there is more than enough power to satisfy my needs. If I was the type that constantly needed more and more... I'd be looking at a WRX or EVO...

Well being an Audi Master Guild tech and working on them for more then 7 years maybe I have a different opinion of Audi/VW then your friend. Consumer reports also said the H2 had the highest intial complaints upon delivery. High complaint about them was the gas mileage. If you've ever taken one of their surveys its easy to see how they cook the numbers. If you answer anything but yes's and the highest grade for service that question automatically is worth half its value. Audi customers consider the tire pressure light coming on a major problem even though its because the customer failed to put air in their own tires. Audi customers still try to pull the run away complaint from the 80's which was later proven to have been staged. Audi's have had throttle by wire since 2000, in which if the car sees the brake pedal being activated and the throttle at the same time, it automatically closes the throttle. If you want to get into quality weren't RX8's having a ton of problems including major engine problems? Bmw bought back a ton of 745's when they were first introduced and Bmw quality is a ton worse then Audi's. I've had a few Bmw techs that I know even tell me how much worse they are and how Idrive is garbage.

Why are you comparing a LGT (which you've been talking about the spec B which is a sedan), a MS6, and keep saying A4 avant? An A4 avant is very close to $40k. If they aren't worried about prestige then wouldn't they look at a Dodge Magnum R/T awd then and save about $8k from the Audi? Most A3's with the 3.2L sticker near $40k too so that would be out. Subie Outback, Forester, and even a Wrx wagon to keep with your wagon fade.

Modded LGT's? Go to ww.legacygt.com and you'll find a lot of modded LGT's. Are they the largest segment of LGT buyers, possibly not however its not an uncommon thing for someone to mod one. Cobb makes a lot of cool things for them like a chip.

I do care about having an aftermarket behind a car. I don't care so much about ricing a car out, or modding it to all hell. What I do care is if the car is popular enough so that when its out of warranty there are aftermarket parts out there that might increase performance and are cheaper then factory stuff. Things like more aggresive brake pads, wheels, stuff that you can upgrade when a part wears out due to normal usage. If the car is a focused group, one or two year only type of car then say in 10 years if I still have it I won't be able to find parts for it. Can you say 323 GTX? I don't mind and actually prefer to have a car that isn't overly common and not everyone knows about it. I just don't want to get something thats so obscure that I'd have to hire a private detective to get synchros in 9 years.

 

[snooky]

has anyone raced a honda s2000? i took one on the other night and smoked it, it really baffled me, either the guy didn't know how to drive, or i got lucky, I thought they were quicker than the MS6 no?

 

[Killer]

has anyone raced a honda s2000? i took one on the other night and smoked it, it really baffled me, either the guy didn't know how to drive, or i got lucky, I thought they were quicker than the MS6 no?

Either he didn't know what he was doing or he wasn't racing ya. Some folks dont like street racing...(spank)

 

[snooky]

Either he didn't know what he was doing or he wasn't racing ya. Some folks dont like street racing...(spank)

i actually hate racing.. he actually signaled me to. i tried not paying attention to him, but he kept speeding up and slowing down, near my car, he pissed me off to tell you the truth. but we have more hp no?

 

[Gandalf]

Either he didn't know what he was doing or he wasn't racing ya. Some folks dont like street racing...(spank)

Stock for stock it's a pretty even race - but from a dig the MS6 has the advantage

 

[Armyguy1104]

It depends on what year the S2000 was according to this as well as the driver. This site collects 0-60 and 1/4 times from various magazines. I believe others have mentioned before that different magazines average their times to give the "everyday" driver the basic times but I am not completely sure of this. If I am correct others have said they got 0-60 in 5.4 - 5.5 in their MS6 as well, and obviously lower 1/4 mile times.

http://www.albeedigital.com/supercoupe/articles/0-60times.html

2000 Honda S2000 5.5 14.2
2003 Honda S2000 6.3 14.9 (Manual)
2004 Honda S2000 5.8 14.2 (MT Mar '04)
2006 Honda S2000 5.5 14.0 (C&D May '06)

2006 Mazda MAZDASPEED 6, 5.8 14.6 (MT Feb '06)

 

[joesmazdaspeed]

STI's, EVO's and 350Zs??? C&D must be smokin crack! I can ALMOST see the first two... only because all 3 cars are 4 door sedans with awd and a lot of power. But that's basically where the similarities end. As far as the 350Z goes... hmm.. let's see... ok, they're both fast. umm... they're both cars. ok, that might be it.

Seriously though, like Newf said, it mainly competes with the LGT. I'm not sure I'd lump it into the same category as the Spec-B though... but it's, at the very least, debateable.

Bottom line. STI's & EVO's are for "enthusiasts" that value speed, handling and "look at me" styling first... and basically everything else second. I think the interiors of both cars are better than a lot of people give them credit for, however. Granted, there's not much to them... no power seats, no fancy keyless entry/start, illuminated dials, navigation, leather seats, etc. Those are the types of pseudo luxury things yuo can expect on the MS6 (GT anyway) Without question, the STI has a far better interior (thanks to Saab's help in redesigning it for the '05 model year) But neither are as low-rent as some might suggest. In comparrison, the MS6 (while having a ton of nice features like the ones I just mentioned) is in no way as high quality as many of its competitors. After recently test driving one, one of the things I couldn't get over was the chintzy plastic interior (namely the air vents, dash storage bin and center portion of the steering wheel.) the LGT, while failing to capture the same aggressive stance of the MS6, has a very well thought out and put together interior. It, unlike the MS6, can at least hold its own with the higher-priced competitors (think Audi, Lexus, VW, etc.)

What it comes down to is the test drive... I'm assuming, because it's so different, the 350Z is NOT on your short list. Do what I did and test drive the LGT, STI, EVO and MS6 back to back (if at all possible). Nothing I or anyone on this forum... or any magazine will be able to provide you with the level of insight you'll gain from that couple of hours. There are some considerable differences between the aforementioned cars so only you can decide which one fits your needs.

If you're leaning more towards having a "gentleman's EVO", unless your plan is to class the STI or EVO up a bit, skip those completely. In this price range, unless you want to sacrfice performance, the LGT and MS6 are really your only options.

Here's a couple articles you may find helpful.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=31&article_id=3280

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedan/112_0602_midsize_awd_sedan_comparison/index.html

well said

 

[snooky]

Stock for stock it's a pretty even race - but from a dig the MS6 has the advantage

sorry i my sound dumb but im unfamiliar with the word "dig", what do you mean we have the advantage?

 

[jdub260]

"dig" or "dead dig" means from a standing start. AWD = advantage

 

[Killer]

". AWD = advantage

Not always.

 

[jdub260]

Not always.

AWD Usually = Launching advantage.