War Against IRAQ...FOR or AGAINST

[70]

ah, ok. but i am sure they would institute a "mandatory army service" or whatever its called like they have in russia and china and many other places, where EVERYBODY goes through it, if they felt there is not enough people.

Ah, yes but this is a free country, remember...

 

[YellowMP5]

i am sure i speak for everybody when i say thank you for protecting us especially in this time. i agree pay should be fair especially when its hazardous to your life. what a shame that people have not learned anything during the 20th century with 2 world wars and numerous other "smaller" wars. so early into the new century and millenium we are headed into another world war. if its not the germans its the extremists muslims, will there be an end to this?

 

[YellowMP5]

you mean "free" country

 

[spoolinmp3]

if its not the germans its the extremists muslims, will there be an end to this

Saddam Hussain is not an extremist muslim and even a religiois one for that matter. He was never considered to be a religous fanatic and is more concerned with wealth and power. He rarely or never uses religious content to rule or opress his people. OBL on the othet hand is fanatical muslim that believes in killing people, however this is very contrary to muslim belief and ethics. It is against there religion to kill unless in defence.

 

[YellowMP5]

then why do they "hide" behind the religion?
why don't the other muslims try to somehow stop them?
and why do we see on tv how they teach children in schools how to hate and kill?

 

[deepcover6]

then why do they "hide" behind the religion?
It is not a question of hiding....they use it to get support as any other political party who knows what the local populace are motivated by...and through out history, religion has been used to motivate people to fight...just in recent history has it been for nationalism. You see extremists take a legitimate argument color it with verses of faith and say that this is gods plan....now most of the public is not educated enough to even know what Islam teaches on such an occasion ...they have been following what their father or their grandfather taught them about faith. Life for most of them is just go to work and come home, family, entertainment etc. when you die..call a saint to come pray over you. So when there is injustice or disturbance of any sort, anything said by these extremists (mostly claptraps)that is related to faith is taken as Gods word.

why don't the other muslims try to somehow stop them?
It is very hard for the average person who has no knowledge to even try. Also the ones who have true knowledge are not heard. The common people in turn fight the legitimate stance and slander it just so that the controversial position takes prescedence. What they want is instant gratification and the extremist path is packed with it. Except they end up going out with a bang for indulging. Rather then apply patience and make the right decision.

and why do we see on tv how they teach children in schools how to hate and kill?
What you see on tv is what the Palestinian kids are taught in order to fight the Israelis. For they know no other path, they are a defeated state and are trying to hold on to whatever territory they have left. Also there is some media propaganda....as well...(which I shall let be, another topic)
Another image pumped on prime time is the schools that cater to this hate mentality that the extremists propagate. There again is a slight twisting of reality....Indeed the Quran teaches how nations of the past went wrong...but does not teach 'hate' If anything...we are taught to hate the sin not the sinner. It is a lesson to learn from. The schools are not teaching hate...but the students jump to their feet when they see the present war and consider this an attack on their faith henceforth they consider it an obligation to retaliate. If they were taught this hate all along then every educated muslim out there who is knowledgeable of this fact should be acting on it....should be seeking to kill any non believer in sight....since our faith raises us to be blood thirsty murderers. (this is where the propaganda lies)

 

[tonkabui]

Ok, slowing down train, there is obviously a difference of opinion on what Clinton did and did not do. Was it the UN that told Clinton to bomb, or was it Clinton acting on his own?? The UN, once again wanted those targets bombed in Iraq. Do we need to know who basically makes up the majortiy of any UN peace keeping force?? The US does...

That's why it is stupid when people say that an UN Peace Keeping Force should be sent in to take care of things, and not the US. The US makes up anywhere from 70-90% of any given UN Peace Keeping Force.

I believe that all the military action that Clinton is creditted with, was brought on by the asking of the UN...Not Clinton on his own. When the US was struck directly, he failed to do something about. A few cruise missiles amount to jack and sh*t when it comes to retribution. And jack wasn't even around for it.

Yes, I will admit that the US' foreign policy is screwy when it comes to countries in the Middle East. We favor countries that will give us something in return. But those countries think we should just give, give and give, and expect nothing in return. But when it is time to give back, they lash out and attack.

The present war on terrorism is going to take a long time. No one said it would happen over night. Look at Israel, they have been fighting terrorism for over fifty years, and have hardly made a dent in it. So why do people expect the US to kill out totally in little over a fort night?

The terrorists are to blame for the attacks on the US. Put the responsiblity where it lies, on the poeple who made the decision to attack. Don't play the liberal BS line of the US is to blame for the attacks on the US.

I don't like that deficit will grow even larger under the new proposed budget. Yes, that sucks.

But a measely 1-3% pay increase is still crap, when the majority of our enlisted service members have to be on food stamps. For crying out loud, the nations military has on a regular basis been shafted for tens of years when it comes to pay raises. The national average of inflation has continually grown faster than the pay increases given to our nations military. God forbid the people who are paid to fight for our country actually make as much your average McDonalds employee. But as it stands, a job at McDonalds pays more.

I will give Clinton one of the few things he did right when actually gave the military a decent pay raise. One that actually matched the rate of inflation for that year. However, it was too little too late in my eyes. They were and are still around the poverty level when it comes to pay.

As an example, if I get activated, I will lose over $800 a month on my average salary. I've been at my real job for two years. I've been a Marine for over five years and am a Corporal (E-4)...And I will lose over $800 a month. That figure includes my base pay, hazardous duty pay, and a few other allowances v. my straight hourly pay at my regular job. That is crap! Tell me how that is good?

And I'm not saying that the cost of fighting a war with Iraq is small. I never said that. That is why it is important to get UN backing so we don't have to foot the entire bill. However, I'm not sure that Bush will wait for the UN's approval.

Unfortunately, I think the UN is acting more and more like the League of Nations before WWII than what the UN was envisioned to be. And personally, France and Germany are just acting like ungrateful little bitches because they know that if we go into Iraq, we will end up rebuilding it into a better country. And that will take money away from them, that we give them.

imagine that! the UN telling america what it should do. i don't think so. you say we hold 70-90% of the military force in the UN. this i agree with. however, what you say doesn't add up. if we make up such a big portion of the peace keeping force, why didn't clinton (who in your eyes didn't do anything) just not allow the forces to go? the US has as much a say in any peace keeping mission or operation as france and germany. we hold veto power just as they do and just as many other countries of the UN. if clinton didn't want to go into kosovo, or bosnia, or iraq, or mogadishu, he could have simply said "i don't want to go in because i am a lame ass president." instead, he sent the bulk of the peace keeping forces.

now on to his decision to send in cruise missiles instead of troops. well, look where sending troops got bush. nowhere near his intended goal. why waste human life and american resources when you can send in cruise missiles to do it for you? OBL is still on the loose. wasn't both presidents' intention to kill or capture OBL? is OBL still around now? so what's more effective? sending in thousands of troops and losing 100 (one of whom could have been you) or sending in cruise missiles to where intelligence reports have pinned him? clinton's hunt for osama cost no american casualty (well, except for when that navy rat fell off the carrier and broke his collar bone). bush's hunt has cost almost 150. you do the math.

and you are absolutely correct in pinning guilt where guilt is due. clinton, bush senior, reagon... none of these men were responsible for the deaths of 3000 people. OBL and his terror network were. so i think it's a moot point to be pointing out that it is clinton's fault OBL is alive today and that clinton was somehow indirectly responsible for the deaths of those in new your, washington, and pennsylvania. that is unfair, and by golly might i dare say... unamerican.

and to the point of the soldiers' raise... i was being sarcastic. if i can work part time making 20K a year, and these people are training themselves to put their lives on the line for this country, there is some major problem here. i was simply making the point that the government's allocation for funds towards defense amounts to a very large amount of money. the money that goes to real soldiers putting real lives on the line for the country is pennies compared to the whole defense budget. that in itself is a travesty.

final point... promise. you say that countries in the middle east all want us to give, give, give. well, they give, give, give, us oil for pennies on the dollar. can you imagine what oil and gas prices would be if these countries stopped selling us oil?

and one last thing... thank you, StuttersC, for being a marine. i applaud your bravery, dedication, and patriotism. if you are one of those many men and women who are going to be in the gulf, i pray for your safety.

 

[1sty]

I am dissapointed to where this tread has lead.

Mostly a basic regergitation that can be heard by the basic two side on the evening news. There seems to be little left about Iraq or the descusion of how to handle them.

I have already ranted onthis exact topic previously but I'd rather summerize.

The most basic breakdown of US foriegn policy since Reagan is a completely undefined set of goals in most situation. To go after Iraq is all well and good but what are the goals of doing this. This is not a simple question as geopolitics has numerous atributes that have to be satisfied. Both G. Bush, Clinton and Bush jr. all have had a weak set of goals at best. Clintons attempts at anything were laughable to say the least and had no chance of success. Bosnia and Kosavo have nothing to do with the situation since public outcry demand he act and its not like bombing people in a technalogical stone age is a diffucult task. Iraq is a different situation.

Bush Senior backed away from Iraq to quickly and Bush Jr. has in no way layed out clear goals for invading Iraq. i am in favor of taking out Sadam but not with out clear set plans for the attack, removal and reconstruction of Iraq. So far all I have heard is how we will attack. This simply is not good enough.

Iraq, North Korea and OBL all present the same threat to the US and that is putting its citizens in danger that they have never been in before. Considering the US is run by a collection of people form all over the world, I feel we and the other free nations are in the best situation to make the demands. Also, the modern US has never used force if ourselves or our allies were in danger.
However we have made a but load of mistakes and I do not want to see another cost Good peoples lives like Stutter becuase of a political game that is interfearing with intelligent solutions.

 

[artfulDodger]

Yeah it is touchy for some people. They are called non americans.

That's the part that irritates me whenever a war-or-peace discussion begins: You shut your head to any opinion except your own. If I or someone else does not agree with your opinion, I am therefore un-American. What is really un-American is to deny the validity of others' opinions. This is a democracy, remember? Everybody has a say. If you don't like other's opinions, move to Iraq.

 

[FuNwaGoN]

Go back and read that again. I was referring to it being a touchy subject. I never said if you don't agree with me then you are wrong and what I said does not come close to implying that. Of course everyone is free to have their own opinion. Did you read any of my posts or did you just stop at the first comment that you didn't understand and attack that. I could explain what I meant by saying it that way but if you don't get the sarcasm already then It won't do me much good to try and explain it with more. BTW go and read my other posts in here and the posts of others and then when you understand what we are talking about you can come and join in the conversation until then maybe you should stick to comic books.

 

[DooMer_MP3]

Go back and read that again. I was referring to it being a touchy subject. I never said if you don't agree with me then you are wrong and what I said does not come close to implying that. Of course everyone is free to have their own opinion. Did you read any of my posts or did you just stop at the first comment that you didn't understand and attack that. I could explain what I meant by saying it that way but if you don't get the sarcasm already then It won't do me much good to try and explain it with more. BTW go and read my other posts in here and the posts of others and then when you understand what we are talking about you can come and join in the conversation until then maybe you should stick to comic books.

Easy there big guy. How the heck do you expect people to pick up on sarcasm from TEXT?

Chris

 

[YellowMP5]

since all this arguing is pointless, we all have different views and such. i have decided to include pictures of "pripyat'". its a town near chornobyl. you guys remember chornobyl, 1986, rigfht? thats where pretty much all of the people who worked at the plant lived.

http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~brians/chernobyl_poems/photos2.html

http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~brians/chernobyl_poems/lsphotointro.html

as you look at the pictures, keep in mind that what you are seeing is a completely deserted city. nobody has lived there for 17 years. everything is as it has been left in 1986. too bad there are no pictures of inside of apartments b/c if you though final destination 2 was scary, you aint seen nothing yet. the dust and dirt inside on top of the desks and shelfs is up to a meter thick. there is "food" inside refrigerators. it has been there for 17 years. toys, books, family photos, clothing has been left behind. you really you wouldn't want to go inside. cats and dogs that roam around are mutants. people can't comeback for at least another 13 years. (halflife of cesium is 30 years) this was an explosian at the factory, not the city. imagine what a nuclear bomb would do to new york, chicago, la, miami...
what do you guys think? would you have the balls to go there?

 

[spoolinmp3]

Thanks for sharing Dima....Just one more reason why Nuke's are a big problem. And why we should be concentrating on North Korea (the more imminent threat) then Iraq. If you think about it while the whole world will be busy in the mid east Korea could plan a whole nuclear onslought. Maybe I am being paranoid ect. But just trying to understand why our supreme leaders are more obsessed with oil rather than a nuclear holocaust

 

[YellowMP5]

the last couple of weeks i have wondered the same thing. looks like north korea is a bigger threat and maybe we should have dealt with them first. however i still think iraq should get what they deserve

here is another interesting bit from a site about chornobyl:

"Whereas deformities numbered in the hundredths of a per cent before, they're now up to 24 per cent. That's a huge figure. For a long time they didn't want to admit that mutations existed, but it's a fact. Animals were the first victims. After the accident, piglets started to appear in the village of Narodychi, near Chernobyl, that were blind or had eyes the size of watermelons. Local residents said that their chickens were hatching something monstrous instead of chicks. More and more children are born with Down's Syndrome. "

 

[TStar]

hmmm...maybe it's time to ask after all:

how do the "pro war" people feel?
...about beeing (again and so obviously) lied to by their government about almost anything about this war?
...about beeing killer soldiers or supporters of those murderers?
...about having blackmailed many countries to make them vote for you in the UN?
...about beeing demagogues so people like the english weapon research expert david kelly, who told the truth about the gov's lies to the papers kill themselves because they can't stand the inhuman pressure?
...not beeing trusted in anymore by majority of this planet?
... beeing the herd that followed their leaders so blindly, now stubbornly ingoring that they've been dumbassed?

do you still try to justify your attitude/actions?

o btw: i forgot .... where did u say were the weapons of mass destruction the iraq was so incredibly full of?

 

[1sty]

hmmm...maybe it's time to ask after all:

how do the "pro war" people feel?
...about beeing (again and so obviously) lied to by their government about almost anything about this war?

Who was lied to? They said they wer going to take that POS out of power and I said, "damn! about time go **** his s*** up!!"

...about beeing killer soldiers or supporters of those murderers?

Oh thats right, I forgot it was OUR soilders that used innocent people as human shields! KNOB!
These ***** murdered there own people ona daily basis becuase they wanted to. Our soilders put an end to that bulls***! Did they kill some scum bag POS Iraq's in the process, damn right and I am glad they did (usa)

...about having blackmailed many countries to make them vote for you in the UN?

Black Mailed, what secrets of there's were we going to expose if they didn't help. The Phrase is BRIBE . That we did bbut keep in mind bribes are simply forms of negotiations in geopolitics.

...about beeing demagogues so people like the english weapon research expert david kelly, who told the truth about the gov's lies to the papers kill themselves because they can't stand the inhuman pressure?

Oh thats why he did :bs: I know I woud feel bad if I helped over throw one of the worst murders in history and take out both of his POS sions so his genetic line comes to a grinding halt.
Atleast this isn't some BS conspiracy theory.

...not beeing trusted in anymore by majority of this planet?

We never were trusted! But atlest now the rest of the world relizes 2 FACTS!
1. We don't need anyones support or permission to take action we deem needed.
2. You piss us off, we will **** your s*** up!

Icing on the cake is North Korea is now SCARED SHITLESS! (rofl)

... beeing the herd that followed their leaders so blindly, now stubbornly ingoring that they've been dumbassed?

They did exactly what we wanted and what was needed. I didn't fallow s*** they finaly did what we have been screaming for years to do.

do you still try to justify your attitude/actions??

This ones tuff as your right, we aren't doing all we should as only Saddams sons are dead. We'll get him sooner or later so don't worry about that.

o btw: i forgot .... where did u say were the weapons of mass destruction the iraq was so incredibly full of?

This one is generaly funny.
Lets see how many years did they have to hide them or export the damn wepons while the UN dicked around with retarded inspectors. Not to mention we have uncovered an array of illegal and banned weapons not to mention the factories used and stocked to creat biolocical and chemical weapons.

Moral of the story:

**** WITH THE USA AND DIE (laugh)

 

[Micah]

"Icing on the cake is North Korea is now SCARED SHITLESS! "

Based on....................?

 

[1sty]

Based on....................?

Lets see, the last 2 contries that stepped on us ended up haveing over thrown governements.
Although most of my comments before were funny exagerations. I realize NK brings up a whole WORLD of problems that makes it a much more intense and diffucult situation.
Hopefully we can just wait out the current governemnt and help the next come into the world as a market force.

 

[Micah]

Yeah, that I could see happenning. I have friends who are in the military that swear we are going to war with NK next. ("war" - yep, alot of them are pretty pissed that the "war on iraq" was declared a "battle" by Bush, this somehow eliminates some kind of benefits for them. I don't know what they are, but my friends seem pretty pissed/let down about it.) NK has nukes, and plans on making more, or at least that is what they seem to be saying.

While I have no doubts that the US armed forces would win in a war against NK; I am sure the losses would be great, not to mention the possibility of nukes being used. Neighboring areas to NK would surely be affected, I think this is why the US has to pussy foot around the situation.

Alot of you will probably think I'm messed up for saying this, but I would like to see a nuke go off in my lifetime. I figure the generation before had the Atomic Bomb, I want to see a Nuclear Strike. Surely I'll regret seeing something so horrible after, but for now - I have a morbid curiousity.

 

[servoeyes]

I don't think you're messed up...just a little selfish. j/k They had pearl harbor and the a-bomb, we have 9/11 (like that wasn't creepy enough to watch!) and the ensuing geopolitcal chaos and restructuring. Besides...they had the moon landing and we'll have the moon and mars colonization and the space elevator and nanotech...we're not that far off. Don't worry, Micah...the world is changing. Just keep you and yours safe and you'll see the beginning of our golden age (if I have any say in it!)