Turbo Mathematics...(for Kooldino and others)
- Thread starter xelderx
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OOOOOOOOOOOOOK look...Dino I like you...but as a friend and a fellow jersian I have to ask you to PLEASSSSSSSSSSSE give it up..we all know your arguments with b_real but I am suprised to see a member with over 3000 posts react this way to an argument..You BOTH are educated guys who obviously know enough to argue about it..so why dont you quit flaming and contribute to what could be a very educational and informative thread?
b_real45 said:
well if your friends car is corrected to that value then more power to him.
some things to remeber when trying to compare the to engines. if you are correct about the redline your talking about 1300 rpm difference between the two. the fs redlines at 6500.
granted the honda head and manifold does flow conciderably better than any other stock product on the market for that vehicle.
honda also did a nice job on the fuel and ignition maps from the factory on these cars.
also stock honda injectors are 4 nozzle injectors for better spray pattern in the higher rpm's
they have 2 large and two small nozzles for better atomization characteristics.
i may be blind but on that dyno sheet i dont see anything about 6 psi
you may say that he has a 5.8 lb spring but ........
any way to answer your question about the BSFC of that vehicle.
with 270cc injectors he will have to have 110 psi of fuel pressure across the injectors and a duty cycle of 85 %. its hard and stressfull on the injectors.he can then run a .4
the inline pump will help the fuel system so the capacity is there im not doubting that.
i would be interested to see if and what a wideband says his a/f ratio is up top. EGT's would be fine with the nice size turbine housing of .63 so that wont really tell too much but it would help
i stiil say that at 6 lbs of boost (or5.8) it is hard to come up with that much power.
again though since you are talking about over 7000rpm and it just reaching peak efficiency then any thing is possible. the stock car came pretty well equiped for volumetric efficincy thru the Vtec.
i still state my case that it is HARD to put that much power out at only six psi but i guess not impossible. i have seen some motors do some outrageous things in the past so this will not really be a huge surprise . just out of the ordinary.
HiBoost TS
Member
I am sorry if I didnt get back with aswers before, but I am so busy and only until now I see whats going on.
I do agree with some numbers given by Kooldino and B_Real 45. I know all about those formulas for finding injector requirements, fuel pump needs and everything related to fuel in turbocharged engines.
Like many of you have said I agree that fuel needs is directly proportional to HP. Not engine size or engine design. That is why some engines make more power than others. A smaller displacement engine can make more power than a larger one. It all depends on how much power an engine can make. Then you need to get the proper air/fuel mixture.
For every 100 HP you will need 50 lbs/hr.
I dont know why Kooldino is questioning our numbers. We have a proven setup. Our car is running with stock injectors, stock pump and stock fuel pressure. There is no lie about this. It has never been lean so far. It it had been lean, I would have changed the injectors or raised the fuel pressure. I certainly know what a lean mixture can do to an engine.
If we had been lean, the dyno results would not be that good and neither would the power shown at the track. A lean or rich mixture will not make good hp.
By my own experience, I can say that a P5 can make close to 240 hp on stock injectors and stock pressure. That may be the limit, but it is possible.
I dont want to get into arguments about formulas and numbers.
Theory is nice. Practice is even better.
Like I said on the other thread, I am away from California and have no way to check the pressure we are running right now. I know it is the stock but I never checked it.
In regards to duty cycle, I will let you know exactly what it is at 8 , 10 and 12 psi when I get back and plug the laptop while at the dyno.
Juan
I do agree with some numbers given by Kooldino and B_Real 45. I know all about those formulas for finding injector requirements, fuel pump needs and everything related to fuel in turbocharged engines.
Like many of you have said I agree that fuel needs is directly proportional to HP. Not engine size or engine design. That is why some engines make more power than others. A smaller displacement engine can make more power than a larger one. It all depends on how much power an engine can make. Then you need to get the proper air/fuel mixture.
For every 100 HP you will need 50 lbs/hr.
I dont know why Kooldino is questioning our numbers. We have a proven setup. Our car is running with stock injectors, stock pump and stock fuel pressure. There is no lie about this. It has never been lean so far. It it had been lean, I would have changed the injectors or raised the fuel pressure. I certainly know what a lean mixture can do to an engine.
If we had been lean, the dyno results would not be that good and neither would the power shown at the track. A lean or rich mixture will not make good hp.
By my own experience, I can say that a P5 can make close to 240 hp on stock injectors and stock pressure. That may be the limit, but it is possible.
I dont want to get into arguments about formulas and numbers.
Theory is nice. Practice is even better.
Like I said on the other thread, I am away from California and have no way to check the pressure we are running right now. I know it is the stock but I never checked it.
In regards to duty cycle, I will let you know exactly what it is at 8 , 10 and 12 psi when I get back and plug the laptop while at the dyno.
Juan
i would like to ask any one who can answer this question.
please look at the link bosted by b real45
the dyno chart looks a little odd. look at it very carefully
notice where it states max a/f ratio
why does it say 17.5
vey strange gragh
i dont know i just doesnt seem right
any one else like to comment
please look at the link bosted by b real45
the dyno chart looks a little odd. look at it very carefully
notice where it states max a/f ratio
why does it say 17.5
vey strange gragh
i dont know i just doesnt seem right
any one else like to comment
Also a few more things:
Yes, at first I was very skeptical too .. before we put the kit on, we were both hanging on the Honda-Tech forum. Guys were getting from 245whp - 270whp on their Tegs. I was like "ya right."
Well, after we installed the kit and worked out a few kinks (like bad return line and poorly wired inline pump), we went to the dyno which was right after the 3" exhaust install.
The guys at SFP were good guys. The only thing I can complain about is that they scratched up the front Type-R urethane lip that my friend has.. but other than that they were great. The guy who was in control of the throttle wasn't sure which tach to look at. He overheard that one of the tachs was wrong so he assumed it was the Autometer when in reality it was the stock tach that was off by 1000rpms or so (my friend botched up a indiglo gauge install).
The dyno went smooth.. and pretty scary since this IS a high compression engine with a massive turbo. What I don't like about the graph is the lack of torque.. and the most torque is at the end of the rpm band. I rather have torque at lower rpms where it'll be best used for the street.
Yes, at first I was very skeptical too .. before we put the kit on, we were both hanging on the Honda-Tech forum. Guys were getting from 245whp - 270whp on their Tegs. I was like "ya right."
Well, after we installed the kit and worked out a few kinks (like bad return line and poorly wired inline pump), we went to the dyno which was right after the 3" exhaust install.
The guys at SFP were good guys. The only thing I can complain about is that they scratched up the front Type-R urethane lip that my friend has.. but other than that they were great. The guy who was in control of the throttle wasn't sure which tach to look at. He overheard that one of the tachs was wrong so he assumed it was the Autometer when in reality it was the stock tach that was off by 1000rpms or so (my friend botched up a indiglo gauge install).
The dyno went smooth.. and pretty scary since this IS a high compression engine with a massive turbo. What I don't like about the graph is the lack of torque.. and the most torque is at the end of the rpm band. I rather have torque at lower rpms where it'll be best used for the street.
jaun , ithink that kooldino was commenting on the fact that at 70% duty cycle the numbers your stating dont make sense.HiBoost TS said:
i dont think he has a problem with the kit
as a matter of fact i think he is very impressed as i have stated also that someone finally came out with a stand alone for the fuel enrichment.
as spoolin has stated it is far superioir than any mechanical " fix" or enrichment for N/A cars going to forced induction.
as far as you claims for 240 hp , that is not far fetched. it really is not alot of power. but definatly doable.
you are also right on another note that it is the most you will get out of the injectors without upgrading.
i have said it many times and will say it again. sometimes things disprove theory thru practice . but theory is our base and we have to learn that first in order to advance and master practice.
there are many variables to look at when trying to make max power, so your claim is valid
my only problem with companys out there (again as i stated umpteen million times) is the fact they look to fuel first and ignition second. in forced induction it should be the opposite or at least at the same level
you mentioned early on in your first posts for the kit that you were pinging at a lttle above 8 psi. after some octane boost or race gas you were able to contain the problem.
this is where i think the problems of ignition timing need to be addressed . the guys running everday on the street dont have to use race gas and octane booster to run higher boost levels if the ignition retard was in place. you would be able to run regular pump gas and use ignition control to get peak cylinder pressures at around 5-7 degrees after top dead center thruout the rpm band. yes running higher octane fuel can help because it will sustain cylinder pressures longer even when ignition has started but like i said for the street it is not practical. i also understand that you all are going and tuning standalones for ignition control. i think you are doing a great job with it along with other vendors like spoolin and some others.
its my personal opinion that turbo kits should address all needs to ENGINE management. not just enough to get by and sell kits.
this is not directed to you or anyone in particular. s*** even BMW kit makers do the same thing.
well i hope everyone can keep this as civil as possible because alot of people have alot of learning to do and dont need any of us bickering over s*** . i still learn everyday from people who know more and less than me.
so keep up the good work guys and keep this forum as "da s*** "
im not following what your saying because it is not showing PSIb_real45 said:
but after looking closly at the gragh i see what your infering to.
its just the highest point on the scale just like to other side is the lowest
also i didnt even realise the integra (ithink 10.5 :1) has higher compression pistons. this changes everything and the numbers can and probably are true
please forgive the ignorance . i cant believe i didnt even realise the static compression was higher.
those powergains are comparitive to a higher dynamic pressure associated with turbo charging at higher values
I am sorry
Kooldino, spoolinmp3, Hiboost and every one in this forum,
I AM SORRY, I am new to this forum and I dont want to be a pain in the ass for you; one of the things I hate most is the people who go to chat rooms, forums and game rooms to make posts so people get angry, and today I became one of them, please do forgive me, I know that you can kick my ass out from this forum but please do give me another chance, I came here because I want to learn from you that have some experience, so far there are some things that I understand and others that could be like for the NASA guys. Please let me stay and again I AM SORRY.
626
Kooldino, spoolinmp3, Hiboost and every one in this forum,
I AM SORRY, I am new to this forum and I dont want to be a pain in the ass for you; one of the things I hate most is the people who go to chat rooms, forums and game rooms to make posts so people get angry, and today I became one of them, please do forgive me, I know that you can kick my ass out from this forum but please do give me another chance, I came here because I want to learn from you that have some experience, so far there are some things that I understand and others that could be like for the NASA guys. Please let me stay and again I AM SORRY.
626
KzA said:
React what way? Why am I catching all the flak about this??? If you go back and read all of the posts, you'll see me being mature, and you'll see B_real trying to belittle me in his. If you re-read our posts, you'll see how I stuck to the argument the whole time, and you'll see how he was almost constantly making personal digs at me. Sorry, I'm just not following your reasoning for singling ME out.
Flame? PLEASE, Point out how I flamed B_real. And whether you realize it or not, we're both CONTRIBUTING to this thread due to our debate.
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HiBoost TS said:
Because they blantantly go against every peice of scientific info I can find. In short, they just don't add up. :-/
Just curious, do you have a Wideband running in your car at all times? Like I've said and proven before...either you're misinformed of one of your variables, or you're just mistaken.
On the extremes, yes. But a slightly lean mix will still make good power.
At 70% duty cycle like your car does? See, that's my main beef...the numbers would add up if it were an 80-85% duty cycle or so, but with a 70% duty cycle, it's way off. My car from the factory used more than 70% duty cycle at redline...so how could your boosted car use LESS? That's my argument.
Because you know you'll lose the argument, since the numbers you're giving us do not add up. Again, I'm not trying to sound rude, but being kind to me and avoiding my question altogether is not the way to get me to accept what you say.
Yup. And practice is constrained by theory.
When will you be back? Can you have someone there check it for you?
Awesome. Again, the MAIN thing i was disagreeing with was the duty cycle you claimed.
RAAZ227 said:
Believe it as you may....This is very true. HONDA HEADS FLOW!!!!
Oh, I can believe they flow for sure, after doing calculations. If in fact that car DOES make that amount of power, he should be running low 13's...but again, that's OT and irrelivant.
Re: I am sorry
LOL, ok man. Sorry, we couldn't help from poking some fun at you on such an "out there" statement. In the future just put some more thought into what you're posting as not to look silly. And always back yourself up with hard evidence if possible.
626 said:
LOL, ok man. Sorry, we couldn't help from poking some fun at you on such an "out there" statement. In the future just put some more thought into what you're posting as not to look silly.
And always back yourself up with hard evidence if possible.HiBoost TS
Member
Kooldino,
I am not trying to win or loose over an argument. I am just saying what we have in our car. I am trying to give the information about our setup.
You stated that there is no way a P5 can make that kind of HP at 10 psi on stock injectors and stock fuel pressure. The duty cycle will change according to the way you map your systems. In our case that is the F10. The duty cycle will change according to many factors. Air temp, altitude, boost, etc.
That means that at 8 psi si not the same as 12 psi.
We might be over 85% duty cycle at 12 psi which is not the right way, but still we have a good air/fuel mixture.
I have not been avoiding you or trying to be nice so you would give up on this. I am busy sometimes and dont have the time to be sitting in front of a computer waiting to see what everybody is saying.
I can assure you that you can make over 200 Hp on a p5 with stock injectors and stock fuel pressure. It is proven!!!!!!
I am not trying to win or loose over an argument. I am just saying what we have in our car. I am trying to give the information about our setup.
You stated that there is no way a P5 can make that kind of HP at 10 psi on stock injectors and stock fuel pressure. The duty cycle will change according to the way you map your systems. In our case that is the F10. The duty cycle will change according to many factors. Air temp, altitude, boost, etc.
That means that at 8 psi si not the same as 12 psi.
We might be over 85% duty cycle at 12 psi which is not the right way, but still we have a good air/fuel mixture.
I have not been avoiding you or trying to be nice so you would give up on this. I am busy sometimes and dont have the time to be sitting in front of a computer waiting to see what everybody is saying.
I can assure you that you can make over 200 Hp on a p5 with stock injectors and stock fuel pressure. It is proven!!!!!!
HiBoost TS said:
Close...I said that it couldn't do it @ 8psi on stock injectors and stock fuel pressure @ redline @ 70% duty cycle. Weeks ago you said that it could with the exact variabels I just stated...I was just challenging that. My point was that your duty cycle WILL be more than 70% assuming you kept the rest of the variables the same. That's all. Just keepin ya in check.
I understand what you're saying.
I hear ya, but it's just that I've brought this up several times over the past few weeks and you've never really given me an answer.
