Torque vs Horsepower

Gen1GT

Member
Ok, so everybody and their grandma argues torque vs horsepower. The thing is, not everyone knows what the difference is. I'm going to explain it in a way that everyone can understand, and so there will never be an arguement about it again.

The basics. Torque is leverage. Horsepower is how is often you make torque.

Torque is work, horsepower is power. Torque is measured in pound-feet. It differs from foot-pounds, because one pound-foot, is equal to 6.28ft/lbs. Like I said, torque is leverage. Imagine you want to move a rock, but can't do it yourself. You use a 5' stick wedged under the rock. Now, when you pull down on that stick, the weight of your body times 5, is the amount of torque you apply. BUT, it has NOTHING to do with how QUICKLY you pulled down on that stick.

Lets say you and a friend are both in a wheel chair. You both weigh the same, except your friend is a slob who's never seen a gym, and you're pretty fit. Lets say the wheel chair wheels are 2' in diamter. When both of your grab the rim and push, you're both capable of exerting 50 lbs of force. Because of the 1' radius wheel, you're both making 50lb/ft of torque. Because of your limited arm span, you were each able to turn the wheel, 1/4 turn. Because you're a bit more fit, you were able to make that 1/4 turn, twice as fast. You my friend, are twice as powerful. You both produced the same amount of torque, and were both CAPABLE of moving your wheelchairs, but you were able to do it faster. You had more POWER. My point? Power accelerates you faster.

Lets say you were going to race some 500lb, 50 year old lady. She, somehow, is JUST able to turn the wheels and get herself moving. You both produce enough torque to move the weight of your bodies. This time, you are able to turn your wheel 4 times, in the time it takes the lady to turn hers once. You are 4 times as powerful, and will move 4 times as fast. Why? Because you're making your torque more often.

Now, what does this have to do with cars? Almost every car makes enough torque to get it moving quite easily. If you can spin the tires, you're making enough torque. Torque dictates HOW MUCH weight can be moved. Horsepower dictates HOW FAST you can move it.

When you make torque, you're automatically making horsepower. Increase torque, and horsepower automatically goes up. This is because horsepower is equal to RPM times torque, divided by 5252. If you make 100lb/ft of torque at 3000RPM, that's equal to 57 horsepower. Increase your torque to 200lb/ft at 3000RPM, that's equal to, you guessed it, exactly double at 114hp. And your car would accelerate a significant amount more with twice the power, AND you could carry a significant more weight while doing it.

OR, what's just as good as making twice the torque to make twice the horsepower? Yep, make it twice as fast. Making 100lb/ft at 6000RPM, is just as good as making 200lb/ft at 3000RPM.

The only way to make torque, is to increase engine size, or increase volumetric efficiency. Which means if you're limited to engine size, you either have to slap on a turbo, or massage the hell out of the engine. Obviously raising compression ratio helps, but not much.

With a turbo, you increase horsepower, by increasing torque. RPM does not matter. With an NA application, you increase high RPM efficiency to increase horsepower. The more often you make torque, the more power you make.

So if you're 'building for torque', you're making the most torque you can. You want to make horsepower by making gobs of torque. Sure, you can spin the tires in any gear at 3000RPM, but it's killer on the drivetrain.

Or you can build for horsepower and massage your engine to effecient at 8000RPM. So that measly 125lb/ft, still makes 190hp at 8000RPM. And WILL accelerate you just as fast as a car with 333lb/ft of torque and 190hp at 3000RPM.
 
I always thought of it this way: torque is the amount of work your engine can do and HP is how fast it gets done.
 
Excellent post Josh...

In a calculus sense...Power is the time rate of change of work (in lb/ft), so its simply the derivative of torque...although there is a different formula for getting SAE BHP...

One thing worth pointing out too...Torque gets multiplied by gearing, and hp does not...
 
Aw crap, I forgot to mention that. If you want more torque, lower your gear ratio. If you're making 100lb/ft, and your total gearing is 10:1, you're getting 1000lb/ft at the axles, which is why is pretty damn easy for a car to get moving. But horsepower doesn't multiply in proportion to torque, because the speed at which the work is occuring is directly inverse to the gearing. In the 10:1 case, you're making 10 times the torque, but 10 times less often.

Doug! Nice to see you over here in the NA section.....
 
yeah nice write up gen. good info for those people who didnt know that.

and just to prove gen is right, my car produces less torque than stock, but i am 0.8seconds quicker over the 1/4 mile...all because i make more power (and i make more torque in the power band, but you get the idea)
 
good write-up. i got tired of trying to explain to people why "more torque" doesn't necessarily mean "faster." and how gearboxes work to multiply the torque of "stupid honduhs."(boom02)

you should probably explain why ft-lbs != lb-ft. this is the first time i've heard someone phrase it that way, but i assume you're using lb-f in one and lb-m in the other.

<-- prefers the metric system. :)
 
Ok then. Foot pounds(ft/lbs) is force. Just say a bolt is torqued down to 150ft/lbs, and you put on a torque wrench and torque to 100ft/lbs. You're still putting 100ft/lbs of force on that bolt, but it's not moving.

Pound-feet is torque, and it has to be done in a radial fashion. If you are putting 100ft/lbs of force on that bolt, and it turns freely for one turn(which would equal 6.28 feet, or double one pi, assuming the handle is one foot long), you would have created 628lb/ft.

horsepower is 33,000ft/lbs in one minute. Which is why it's 5252lb/ft(33,000 divided by 6.28) per minute. Which is why horsepower is equal to torque times RPM divided by 5252.
 
Gen1GT said:
Which is why horsepower is equal to torque times RPM divided by 5252.
I was gona say you missed one of the most important part of information, but you added it right here. HP and Torque are always equivalent at a given rpm. If you make a given amount of Torque at 2000rpm, there's no question what your HP will be and vice versa.

one thing i've realised not alot of people know.
 
Gen1GT said:
Ok then. Foot pounds(ft/lbs) is force. Just say a bolt is torqued down to 150ft/lbs, and you put on a torque wrench and torque to 100ft/lbs. You're still putting 100ft/lbs of force on that bolt, but it's not moving.

Pound-feet is torque, and it has to be done in a radial fashion. If you are putting 100ft/lbs of force on that bolt, and it turns freely for one turn(which would equal 6.28 feet, or double one pi, assuming the handle is one foot long), you would have created 628ft/lbs of torque.
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i think it's a mixup of terms.

first, you're confusing the issue by saying "foot-pounds (ft/lbs)"

foot-pounds = ft-lbs, not ft/lbs.

what you're talking about above are two different things. the first is torque, not force. in your example, you are describing torque, which is the force multiplied by the moment arm (the distance from which the force is applied- in this case, one foot). it doesn't matter whether you say "foot-pounds" or "pound-feet," b/c when you multiply terms, the order doesn't matter:

torque = lb-m*ft = ft*lb-m = lb-ft

in the second example, you're calculating the WORK that is required to turn the bolt one revolution. in the first example, no work is being done (because no motion- technically, no acceleration- is occurring), even though torque is being applied.
 
This is getting really confusing I think...

First, Dmitrik is describing it the way I understood it...That it is not ft/lbs...But torque is a cross product between a radius (or moment arm length) and a Force (where force and the radius are both described as vectors)...and because it is a product, it is irrelevant which comes first (lb-ft or ft-lb)

Work isn't directly related to any type of acceleration...it is simply a force times a displacement...If you pick up a book from a table, raise it above your head, then put it back on the table...the net work done on the book is zero, because the displacement is zero...

in the example with torquing a bolt that won't move, the work is zero because the displacement is zero, and the "net" force is zero (net force meaning, you are putting an angular force on the bolt, and there is a frictional negative force in the opposite direction...no acceleration occurs, so adding the force vectors has to result in zero due to newton's second law F(net)=ma...Its a little more complicated because you are dealing with rotation, but that gives the idea)
 
Gen1GT said:
Foot pounds, and pound feet, as stupid as it is, are different. This explains it better than I ever could....

http://www.superstang.com/horsepower.htm
I thorougly hate english measuring...that is what is getting this all screwed up...

Work is a product of Force and displacement...Force is rarely represented as a measure of lbs...but more often as a mass times 9.8m/s/s, which is in terms of Newtons...and work comes to be represented in terms of a N-m, or newton meter...meter newton means the same thing...and 1N-m, is one Joule, which is one kg-m^2/s^2 (which is also the measure of kinetic energy)

Regardless of what you use...A force times a displacement, is the same as a displacement times a force...if one is zero...the work is zero...

This article tries to illustrate that a force times a displacement is different than a displacement times a force...and perpetuates this goofy notion by using confusing ass british measurements...

As mentioned earlier, torque is a product of a force times a length...exactly like work...but they mean completely different things...torque refers to one force, and a length as a magnitude ( it won't be negative, and it won't be zero)...this length is of the moment arm of what is creating the force...the longer the moment arm with the same force, the greater the torque on the rotating (or attempted rotation) object...

Torque is also represented in terms of N-m, or lb-ft, or ft-lb (they are products...it doesn't matter)...But you use different lengths to determine which is work and which is torque...they are not the same, despite being in terms of the same symbols...

Here is a simple example...You are trying to open a door by pushing it...the distance from the hinge to the door knob is one meter...The torque on the door (more correctly, the hinges) will be the force with which you push, times one meter...so simply the force you push with...If you push with 100N's...the torque will be 100 N-m's...

the Work is much more different, and is related to a linear displacment...the circumferance of the door moving 90* will be 1/4(2(3.14)1.. .which is 1.57m...So the door moves 1.57 meters when being open from shut to 90*...

So when you push the door with 100Ns and move the edge of the door a linear distance of 1.57m, you have done 100 X 1.57 N-m's of work on the door or 157 N-m's...That is the difference between the too...

That is a bit of a bad example in that the torque is being applied to the hinges, and the work is to the whole door...that is part of the difficulty of relating the two...But hopefully this illustrates that lb-ft and ft-lbs are indeed the same thing...and both can be used to describe both torque and work...But torque and work are not the same thing...so you have to know what the number represents...
 
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So if 1hp is equal to 33,000ft/lbs per minute, how do you explain the formula of hp=torque*RPM/5252? If we use ft/lbs in that formula, it would be off by a factor of 6.28. Fact is, the British system IS retarded, and there IS a difference between ft-lbs and lb-ft. 1 lb-ft is equal to 6.28ft-lbs. Which is how 33,000 is factored down to 5252.
 
Josh it looks like you just confused yourself...It takes 6.28 lb-ft or ft-lbs of WORK to make 1 lb-ft or ft-lb of TORQUE...

You NEVER put the notion of WORK in the hp formula...It has to be torque...or you will be off by the 6.28 factor like you mentioned...the number for work and the number for torque are different, but it doesn't matter which is lb-ft or ft-lbs...they can both be either, again because they are products...But you need to know which number is representing work done, and which is representing torque...despite having the same symbols, they represent completely different things...

refer back to what I edited in on my last post in the last page...that may help explain it a little more...
 
it's just thatbguy's weird notation scheme. it helps to keep track of which quantity you are dealing with (torque or work), but mathematically, it makes no difference.

the key is rememberng that the the torque "length" and the work "length" are entirely different animals. they refer to different distances.

and yes, the english system does suck. honestly, two different kinds of "lbs?" gah.

unit notation aside, the notion that power = speed and that it's better to make X torque at high rpms than X torque at low still holds true.
 
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