Stock Narrow band O2 = LEAN

[mp3moose]

Is it worth going to a wideband on an NA setup?

 

[perfworks]

For any setup.

 

[Kooldino]

Is it worth going to a wideband on an NA setup?

Not really.

 

[wagner]

The fast is a great ecu. ITs very simple and staight forward. Not alot of extras that you don't need. I love it for my car. I also have a mx6 that I am installing a fast system on.

Andrew Wagner
Wagnermotorsports.net

 

[perfworks]

Not really.

Anytime you need to tune any A/F ratio you should use a WB. Doesnt matter how the engine processes the mixture. Via induced or forced it doesnt matter. A/F ratios still have to be monitored and tuned the same way. Just the mapping is different.

 

[Kooldino]

Anytime you need to tune any A/F ratio you should use a WB. Doesnt matter how the engine processes the mixture. Via induced or forced it doesnt matter. A/F ratios still have to be monitored and tuned the same way. Just the mapping is different.

Yeah, but the range of a:f ratios you're looking at with a boosted car vs an N/A car are radically different...hence, it's really not worth laying out the cash for a WB, when you can get by with a NB.

 

[perfworks]

Yeah, but the range of a:f ratios you're looking at with a boosted car vs an N/A car are radically different...hence, it's really not worth laying out the cash for a WB, when you can get by with a NB.

A/F ratios will depend on the level of performance you are looking for. Correct. BSFC rate will be higher for turbo charged cars ONLY when increasing fuel enrichment to prevent knock activity, lean spots and misfires. You are basically throwing fuel at it.
It doesnt matter what application you may have though when usning a WB. Anytime you need to tune for richer A/F ratios, You need a better tuning tool than a O2 that doesnt read above or below 14.7 accurately. That is fact. Those that read the stock narrowband sensor for boost are really playing with fire.
It is meant only to be used as a closed loop tool for emmisions. Thats it. Doesnt matter if it is for the street , strip , dyno, whatever. If you want to get accurate levels of performance you must be willing to spend money on the most important tools used for tuning any engine.

 

[Bigg Tim]

How can we test to see if the stock O2 reads higher or lower than 14.7? It's kinda hard to believe. I'm not saying it isn't so, I would just like to test it or see some hard facts about that.

 

[spoolinmp3]

A/F ratios will depend on the level of performance you are looking for. Correct. BSFC rate will be higher for turbo charged cars ONLY when increasing fuel enrichment to prevent knock activity, lean spots and misfires. You are basically throwing fuel at it.

Very true, just because you are tuning a N/A car does not mean you do not need to monitor a wide range of a/f's. You need to evaluate and monitor dips and peaks in the a/f ratio that will definetly surpass the stoich mixture. If you datalog a/f's graphically while you are tuning you will see what I am talking about. I tuned a n/a honda with an emanage and the a/f was all over the place. If I had a narrow band I would have never known. Also you want to tune a high powered N/A car in the mid to high 13 a/f range.....something the narrow band cant do

 

[midnightracr]

Is it necesary to have this if you're running a Stand-Alone that comes pre-tuned. Now I do know even though they come pretuned they still need to be tuned. Would u tune it throgh the stand alone or the wideband?

 

[perfworks]

Is it necesary to have this if you're running a Stand-Alone that comes pre-tuned. Now I do know even though they come pretuned they still need to be tuned. Would u tune it throgh the stand alone or the wideband?

Our standalone will come pretuned. There will be a correction needed for some vehicles with different induction systems. It would be nice to incorporate it as the ECU will correct it for you. Your target A/F ratio can be adjusted by the ECU. Otherwise the Standalone EMS will be able to run in closed loop also giving the same ability your stock ecu has to be efficient. Then when your transistion begins to open loop your specific application should utilize a WB to help fine tune your fuel and ignition curve.

 

[MPNick]

A/F ratios will depend on the level of performance you are looking for. Correct. BSFC rate will be higher for turbo charged cars ONLY when increasing fuel enrichment to prevent knock activity, lean spots and misfires. You are basically throwing fuel at it.

A/F ratios will depend on the engine you are tuning. The level of performance you are looking does not change the AFR needed to get there. Most modern engines will run very high 12s to mid 13s AFR if they are a NA engine. You take any engine and start tuning for max power the AFR will stay very near the same as stock. Most of the time you will be leaner the stock. The cylinder burn rate, stroke, bore, and a few more things will determan the AFR. We are talking about V E levels here. Add a header, cam, and a intake and guess what? The AFR will not change much. When you reach the sweet spot of the engine the AFR will not change much unless you change the V E alot.

When tuning a turbo engine you never add fuel to prevent knock. Again when you reach the sweet spot with fuel and if you are still knocking you need to look at a few things. It may need less timing, less boost, more intercooler, higher octane or cam timing change. Do not get me wrong, if the AFR is at 15s yes you need more fuel. But if the exhaust temps are good and the AFR is good adding fuel is not the right way to go. This is how the OEM tuned back in the 80s. They still run richer the most tuners like but the OEM is looking at engine not lasting past the warranty. So they run them richer then they need to be. They have to think about the customer that will run 89 octane when they call for 93. They have to look at so many thing that they really tune out power on most cars.

You can spend all you want on WBs but it is still the same thing. It will come down to how well you tune your car. Tuners have been tuning cars well before the WBs were around. You have to be smart about what key you tap on your laptop. I like the idea of piggybacks because the OEM has already done alot of work for you in the tune department. Standalones are great for olders that have very slow computers. The EEC-V that you have is about as good as anything you will every find.

Thanks again


Later..........Nick

 

[perfworks]

Cant beleive I lost my own thread LOL.

 

[perfworks]

A/F ratios will depend on the engine you are tuning. The level of performance you are looking does not change the AFR needed to get there. Most modern engines will run very high 12s to mid 13s AFR if they are a NA engine. You take any engine and start tuning for max power the AFR will stay very near the same as stock. Most of the time you will be leaner the stock. The cylinder burn rate, stroke, bore, and a few more things will determan the AFR. We are talking about V E levels here. Add a header, cam, and a intake and guess what? The AFR will not change much. When you reach the sweet spot of the engine the AFR will not change much unless you change the V E alot.

When tuning a turbo engine you never add fuel to prevent knock. Again when you reach the sweet spot with fuel and if you are still knocking you need to look at a few things. It may need less timing, less boost, more intercooler, higher octane or cam timing change. Do not get me wrong, if the AFR is at 15s yes you need more fuel. But if the exhaust temps are good and the AFR is good adding fuel is not the right way to go. This is how the OEM tuned back in the 80s. They still run richer the most tuners like but the OEM is looking at engine not lasting past the warranty. So they run them richer then they need to be. They have to think about the customer that will run 89 octane when they call for 93. They have to look at so many thing that they really tune out power on most cars.

You can spend all you want on WBs but it is still the same thing. It will come down to how well you tune your car. Tuners have been tuning cars well before the WBs were around. You have to be smart about what key you tap on your laptop. I like the idea of piggybacks because the OEM has already done alot of work for you in the tune department. Standalones are great for olders that have very slow computers. The EEC-V that you have is about as good as anything you will every find.

Thanks again


Later..........Nick

The fact of the matter is this thread touches on the subject of inaccuracy by the stock Narrowband sensor.
WB O2's are designed to accurately measure the A/F ratio thruout the entire RPM band, regardless of throttle position and drive cycle. The stock sensor is only good for Stoich reading and feedback to the ECU. If you would like to run 14.7 all the time then I guess you will be OK.

 

[MPNick]

The fact of the matter is this thread touches on the subject of inaccuracy by the stock Narrowband sensor.
WB O2's are designed to accurately measure the A/F ratio thruout the entire RPM band, regardless of throttle position and drive cycle. The stock sensor is only good for Stoich reading and feedback to the ECU. If you would like to run 14.7 all the time then I guess you will be OK.

Not sure where this info comes from. If the stock O2 was inaccuracte the new cars would not be able to run under power in closed loop. You have cars making over 500 hp from the factory now. They all use O2 sensors to run in closed loop.

How many race cars run Wideband O2s?

Thanks again


Later...........Nick

 

[mp5smuggler]

just started reading this thread. perf..... i have an autometer a/f gauge installed and im always reading that im running rich by like 2 or 3 green bars. when i spray it drops down into the orange (perfect range). if i get a wbo2 will these readings change? will i be shocked and see im running lean when i spray? will the autometer be accurate enough to read the change?

 

[perfworks]

Not sure where this info comes from. If the stock O2 was inaccuracte the new cars would not be able to run under power in closed loop. You have cars making over 500 hp from the factory now. They all use O2 sensors to run in closed loop.

How many race cars run Wideband O2s?

Thanks again


Later...........Nick

Research. That is where all logical info is based from. ALSO fact.
Narrow band O2 sensors are used in closed loop Stoich mixture control only.
ONLY.
They do not have the ability to accurately read above that point. They can however read a little leaner but only used for 14.7:1 calibrations.
The stock vehicles form the factory were tuned with WB's. ALL race cars run WBO2's. ALL of the proffessionally tuned ones at least. Please dont confuse yourself with closed loop and open loop feedback.

I find myself constantly reitterating the same points. It is fact , WB O2's are used to meter and tune vehicles for the ENTIRE A/F range the ENTIRE RPM and LOAD range accurately. Period.

 

[perfworks]

just started reading this thread. perf..... i have an autometer a/f gauge installed and im always reading that im running rich by like 2 or 3 green bars. when i spray it drops down into the orange (perfect range). if i get a wbo2 will these readings change? will i be shocked and see im running lean when i spray? will the autometer be accurate enough to read the change?

There is a big difference between running rich and running pig rich. Then there is the happy and safe medium for some. Do you know what the bars mean?
Unless it is based on a WB output they are basically guessing at the oxygen content and A/F ratio you are running. Yes you would see a big difference if you were to use a WB display and sensor. You would acctually then have a numerical account to the Richness or leaness of your mixture. Not just some software telling you where you are based on voltage spikes.

 

[MPNick]

Research. That is where all logical info is based from. ALSO fact.
Narrow band O2 sensors are used in closed loop Stoich mixture control only.
ONLY.
They do not have the ability to accurately read above that point. They can however read a little leaner but only used for 14.7:1 calibrations.
The stock vehicles form the factory were tuned with WB's. ALL race cars run WBO2's. ALL of the proffessionally tuned ones at least. Please dont confuse yourself with closed loop and open loop feedback.

Race cars are tuned on a dyno, they are tuned with both O2 and EGT. The WB that are used on the dynos cost over $800.00 for the sensor alone and they last less then 100 miles at best. Do you think that a $300.00-$400.00 WB kit is used to tune a $20,000.00 and up race engine? Race cars do not use O2 sensors for fuel control. OEM cars are tuned about the same way as race cars. They also need to look at exhaust gas emissions, NOX, HC, CO,CO2 and O2. The stock OEM O2 are used to read the exhaust, the range of the OEM is about 10.50 to 15.50 AFR.

WB do not last long and they no not like race fuel. This is one of the main reasons that no race engines use them to control fuel. No race engine will depend on a WB O2 for fuel control, they are never trusted. PLease show me one race engine that is run in closed loop, this is the only way the WB would control fuel. Most if not all of the WB kits are fast response sensors and not the WB as used on dynos.


Thanks again


Later..........Nick

 

[perfworks]

Race cars are tuned on a dyno, they are tuned with both O2 and EGT. The WB that are used on the dynos cost over $800.00 for the sensor alone and they last less then 100 miles at best. Do you think that a $300.00-$400.00 WB kit is used to tune a $20,000.00 and up race engine? Race cars do not use O2 sensors for fuel control. OEM cars are tuned about the same way as race cars. They also need to look at exhaust gas emissions, NOX, HC, CO,CO2 and O2. The stock OEM O2 are used to read the exhaust, the range of the OEM is about 10.50 to 15.50 AFR.

WB do not last long and they no not like race fuel. This is one of the main reasons that no race engines use them to control fuel. No race engine will depend on a WB O2 for fuel control, they are never trusted. PLease show me one race engine that is run in closed loop, this is the only way the WB would control fuel. Most if not all of the WB kits are fast response sensors and not the WB as used on dynos.


Thanks again


Later..........Nick

I'm glad you are proving my points. The cars that come from the factory are allready based tuned. They dont require WB's to do the job. Once modifying a street vehicle IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to get an accurate A/F reading with the stock NB sensor since its only function is for closed loop emmission control.
You asked what race cars used the WB. I anwsered ALL of them.
Because they DO. ON THE DYNO is correct. The first correct assumption Ive heard thus far.
The stock O2 is NOT I repeat NOT used to monitor "exhaust"
It is used to relay information on oxygen content IN THE EXHAUST thru burned Hydrocarbons ONLY. It doesnt know the difference between 14.0 to 10.0. As a matter of fact you could be running so rich as to be misfiring and you O2 will read lean. Because it is only capable of reading OXYGEN. Not raw liquid fuel.
Another point , WHY are you bringing up race engines? We are talking about tuning our street vehicles to be efficient, powerful and reliable. The only way to be accurate is to tune via WB. Period.

If you like I can post hundreds of links that can give you all the info you like on WB research and develoment. That way you can clear up some of your thoughts.