speakers to help fill in midbass?

[nealric]

speakers to help fill in midbass?

At the moment, I am running the stock speakers of a pioneer amp that does 50w RMS.

I just replaced my sub with a pair of infiniti kappa 12s. They are absolutely thundrous, but they have created a new problem. I have totally loss the upper/mid bass frequency. For example, if I am listening to a bass guitar, the lower notes are filled in by the subs, then it hits a note above the x-over and I can barely hear it. I feel like tossing the stock speakers might help in that department.

Where should I start for a goot set of front speakers that can put out some midbass? As of now, I am a bit torn between components and coax- just not sure if I want to bother with installing components now.

 

[grey]

I have a kicker comp 10 and infinity components in the front of my MP5. Sounds great. My 5 came with components from the factory, so I had factory tweeter mounts inside where the side view mirrors are mounted.

With all that thunder you may want to go with a component set in the front handling tweeters and midbass, and woofers mounted in the stock location in the rear doors. Only way I see you getting balance with those 12's in the back.

 

[FoxPro5]

1) Play with the crossover on the sub amp so that it blends better.
2) Make sure you match the output levels on both amps. Get a DMM and run through the gain setting tutorial.

If those don't help, then consider a set of component speakers that can be configured briaxial style (the tweeter mounts in or above the midbass).

 

[chuyler1]

In your situation, here is what I would do.
1) Raise the crossover point on the subwoofer to 120-150 Hz
2) Lower the gain on the subwoofer amp so that male vocals don't sound too boomy
3) Raise the bass boost (usually at 40-45Hz) to gain back some of the low end. This is assuming your amp has a bass-boost...most do.

What will this achieve? It will lower the overall gain on the subwoofer so that it can play into the higher registers without overpowering your front speakers. It will basically fill them out. Buuuut, the whole reason for having a subwoofer is that low end boom...so you can boost that a little to gain back what you lost by turning the gain down. Make sense?

Now if that doesn't satisify your need for midbass, I strongly urge you to go the component route. It is worth every penny.

 

[lisevolution]

If you try Chuyler's suggestions and still aren't satisfied with the results, definitely go the component route. There is no comparison between the sound quality of a component set and the best coaxial set. Also, do not go and buy 6X8 components, do yourself a favor and buy 5.25 or 6.5" components and get a plate made for them. The accoustic principles of a round speaker are far superior to anything oval. The simple reason being that the motor is pushing a uniform cone through it's movement. Also to compare coax to component... do you want a hole in the center of your cone? Although coax's can sound good, if you're looking to get quality mid-bass then you want a fully sealed circular cone and a seperate round tweeter. There are much more complicated principles behind these reason's but look at the basics I laid out and you should get what I'm talking about.

Chuyler's idea is an excellent one and should help but my guess is you won't be as happy as if you switch to components. I say that because even with the gain turned down, the subs will still have a tendency to be boomy at the mid-bass frequencies as they're not really designed to pick them up especially 12's which are really made for freq. lower than 80hz, and hit best at the 40-60hz range. Also the staging of the mid-bass vocals will now be coming from the rear instead of in front of you which where you want these to sound like they're coming from...

Bottom line, if you can afford it buy some components for the front and a good set of coax's for the rear to fill the sound stage and you will be very happy with the quality you get.

 

[chuyler1]

The accoustic principles of a round speaker are far superior to anything oval.

That is a myth. Well, it does have some merit but the diferences are going to be inaudible at 30MPH in a car environment. However, something that does have merit is the increased cone size of a 5x7 speaker vs. a 5.25 or 6.5" speaker. The larger cone will produce noticably more bass. Ok, It won't be night and day, but it will be more noticable than the switch to oval from round. Plus, they are easier to install. I'm not saying you should limit your search to 5x7 components...but if the ones you like happen to come in 5x7, there is no reason not to buy them.

I say that because even with the gain turned down, the subs will still have a tendency to be boomy at the mid-bass frequencies as they're not really designed to pick them up especially 12's which are really made for freq. lower than 80hz, and hit best at the 40-60hz range. Also the staging of the mid-bass vocals will now be coming from the rear instead of in front of you which where you want these to sound like they're coming from...

The sub won't be boomy if you turn the gain down to the proper level. Even 12" subs have a fairly flat response up to 200-500Hz. Staging will be affected slightly but it won't be as bad as you might think...provided the gain is low enough. The human ear cannot directionalize sound below about 200-250Hz so the only thing pulling your ear to the back of the car will be rattles and vibrations.

You are much better off raising the subwoofer crossover frequency than adding any rear speakers...which most definitely will pull your entire sound stage back.

 

[lisevolution]

That is a myth. Well, it does have some merit but the diferences are going to be inaudible at 30MPH in a car environment. However, something that does have merit is the increased cone size of a 5x7 speaker vs. a 5.25 or 6.5" speaker. The larger cone will produce noticably more bass. Ok, It won't be night and day, but it will be more noticable than the switch to oval from round. Plus, they are easier to install. I'm not saying you should limit your search to 5x7 components...but if the ones you like happen to come in 5x7, there is no reason not to buy them.


The sub won't be boomy if you turn the gain down to the proper level. Even 12" subs have a fairly flat response up to 200-500Hz. Staging will be affected slightly but it won't be as bad as you might think...provided the gain is low enough. The human ear cannot directionalize sound below about 200-250Hz so the only thing pulling your ear to the back of the car will be rattles and vibrations.

You are much better off raising the subwoofer crossover frequency than adding any rear speakers...which most definitely will pull your entire sound stage back.

Chuyler, you and I could probably go on for days discussing the merits, drawbacks to both the speakers and the amp settings. I'm sure you're as versed in this space as myself and perhaps even more. That said, my experience with adjusting the amp cross-over and lowering the gain to even out the mid-bass lost due to over-bassing my car vs. upgrading speakers has not been nearly as successful. Also much of the reasoning behind putting 2 12" subs in a car is to get that over the top bass feel and he will definitely lose some of that by lowering the gain and allowing the higher frequencies to play through the sub. In any case if we can help that's what matters. Try Chuyler's method like I said, if that doesn't solve the problem to your satisfaction, go for the speakers, as that will accomplish your goal if you pick wisely.

 

[02kllrb]

wait! we have factory tweeter mounts where the side mirrors are? I dont have those!!! where could i find them? other than the stealership? anyone wanna sell or trade for blank ones?? i doubt it. i'll need them when i install my 6.5" components.

 

[chuyler1]

You can get them at the stealership or you will find a better price online or at a local salvage yard (look for 02.5+ Protege5s or 03 MSPs, I don't think the standard Proteges had the 6-speaker option). If you can't find them don't fret...you can always just use a hole-saw bit to drill a hole in the one you have to mount the component tweeters flush, or you can do a surface mount (doesn't look as nice but gets the job done).

Lastly, you can always mount the tweeter coaxially by making a bracket that hangs the tweeter over the woofer. You may be thinking...why don't I just get coaxials if I'm gonna do that? The answer is coaxials don't have a crossover network to accurately filter the low frequencies from the tweeter and the high frequencies from the woofer. Instead they use an inline capacitor which doesn't work as well. The quality of component woofers and tweeters is generally better than most coaxials also (there are execptions but not many).

 

[02kllrb]

yeah, i'm definitely going with components. i'll probably go with coaxials for the rear, since you cant hear them that well. if i cant get them i plan to flush mount them. surface mount looks ghey. i'm just hoping i have enough depth on those tiny panels for a flush mount tweeter. i plan on getting the alpine type s 6.5 components and probably the 6.5 coaxials in the rear. actually, on opinions now.....alpine makes a 5x7/6x8 component type s. would i have a better overall sound with those or the 6.5? i'd also have to special mount the 6.5's too. which would benefit me more?

 

[chuyler1]

I would just buy the 5x7/6x8 version to save yourself the trouble.

 

[Poseur]

anything for the rear is throwing away money. Use the stock ones run off of a deck.

As for speaker shapes, actually alot of very highend speakers are moving away from round round. perfectly round speakers make for interesting harmonics across the speaker itself. not to say that oval is superior to this, or that any of that even matters outside of a sealed audiphile chamber, but really, round vs oval matters not. easier fit and more bass extension (plus possibly a bit of efficiency) is a very good reason to go 5x7 if it's an option in your case.

 

[chuyler1]

Although the speakers appear round, the older Eclipse speakers I had were actually octagonal. The edges of the cone were cut jagged for the reasons Poseur described above. They were mounted to a perfectly round surround so you woudl never know.

 

[FoxPro5]

Do square shaped cones produce only square waves?