Sparkco Wires on MP3

[pingdum]

Re: Benefits of plug wires

Electrons fill a conductive material like a hose full of water. Once the water pressure increases on one end water flows at the other.

You are disprovimg your own point here. A larger diameter hose (gauge). With a cleaner inside(resistance). and less holes in it(interference). Will move larger quantities of water faster than a smaller, dirtier, leakier hose.

 

[pingdum]

By the way Sparko, would there be any chance of getting any kind of group rate if I got my club (http://www.protegenetwork.org/chapters/CFL/ )to buy like 5 or so sets from you guys? I'm sure if you included some stickers they would end up on a few cars.

 

[IWonder]

Electricity

A spark starts the combustion process. The properties of the fuel have much more influence on proper combustion. Please tell me more about skin depth, frequency, impedance. How do these play a role in this process. I am familiar with the latter two but do not know much of this skin depth. Are you refering to the thickness of the insulation.

I would really like for someone to help point out how I have disproven myself. Someone here seems to understand the analogy I made to water. And I do agree that less resistance in a hose wire or whatever will allow more flow for the same potential difference. But have you measured the resistance of the old plug wires? You will probably find the resistance to be very low. Someone try this on their old plug wires so we can do some figuring. I do know that to make the spark a current is applied to an inductor (coil of wire) and then effectively the ciruit is opened. Since hte current flowing through the inductor has created a magnetic field the energy must be conserved and go somewhere. That somewhere ends up being the spark at the plug. So yes you are correct less resistance more current. But current is not the major concern. What is more important is the potential difference (voltage). Current does not make the spark happen potential difference does. Current is the flow of electrons through the gap of air in the spark plug that happens once there is enough voltage. You are thinking resonably though. I do believe that you will understand the point I am trying to make if you investigate this further. The plug wires (even old ones) do not have enough resistance to make that much of a difference when the voltage is this high. Think back to the water, small hose or big hose, if there is 5psi in that hose it is still 5psi. That pressure is similar to the voltage. All you are trying to do is spray the water across a certain distance, say an meter. With high enough pressure you can spray that water over that meter from a small hose or a big hose. That stream is similar to the spark. It is not to much concern how much water flows but instead it is much more important that you reach your desired distance. The air in the gap of the plug has a break down voltage once that break down voltage is met a spark will happen thus igniting the fuel. And from there you have completed your task!

I would like to be informed on how frequency plays a role. Are we talking about how often a spark occurs. Or are you telling me that we need to consider alternating currents. I am sure there is plenty of noise on those wire that might be very interesting to see on an O-scope but last time I checked we are using direct current priciples here. Frequency not apply. Tell me about single strands of wire. Why do we use stranded wire rather than a single wire? To benefit current flow we can increase the surface area on which the elctrons can flow, but what do you mean make it past resistance. I am not understanding what your are trying to say. Using a larger gage wire may actually increase resistance. But that can be a trade off to having a wire that can carry more current without melting and resulting in an open circuit. But the resistance of two wire equal in distance and different in gage is going to be nominal, so its not really a concern. If you read the statements above you would note that we are concerned about voltage to create a spark, current is just a measurement of coulombs (charge). And please tell me, where does our knowledge come from to make some of the satement we ahev been making? "Not to mention skin depth, frequency, impedance, etc. " I am assuming you learned about frequency somewhere. What did they tell you that make you believe that it has something to do with the process which we are trying to achieve.

Just some thoughts.

 

[Snype451]

Breaking this down very simply: Everything is a function of I=v/r or Current = Voltage divided by resistance. Moving ht eequation around, voltage = current times resistance or V= IR. As you can see voltage, current and the resistance all play an important part in compleating a circut.

Now the part of concern her eis not the sparkplug or the coils, but rather how the electrons are getting from one ot the other. Back to the anology of the coat hanger wire, yes, it would probably transmit some of the electrons from one end to the other, however the resistance would be quite high.

This also begins to equal in the skin depth I mentioned earlier. Tradiationaly, electrons only like to travel the path of least resistance, which is the outside of the wire. As you can see with only one thick wire there is a limited number of electrons that can be transmited at any given time.

http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/SkinDepth.html

So, the most efficent way to get the electrons from one end to the other, is (taking into account the amout of power [power = current times voltage] resitance etc so the wires don't melt) is multiple strands of wire, each with a very low resistance.

and finally, as an aside, everything has a frequency, electrons where as you like to compare it to water, moves as a wave, have a frequency, AC is more renown for this with a given frequency of 60 or 50 hz typical for everyday use, but DC will also have a frequency, just a much lower one.

 

[IWonder]

Cool

Outstanding, that skin effect! Did not think you would be discussing that particular effect. You are correct in that electricity flows on the surface area of the wire. But the main reason for using straded wire instead of single strad wire has nothing to do with resistance. It just makes it more flexable. I do agree that there will be some difference in reistance but again its nominal. Since we are using references:

from: http://www.wiringfordcc.com/trakwire.htm

"Solid or stranded? The skin effect gives the solid, for a given size, a slightly higher voltage drop. But it's so little, you can relax. You probably have known that the skin effect was nothing to worry about at DCC frequencies. Now you have evidence to support that knowledge.

Solid and stranded perform so nearly the same that the difference is too small to notice. Solid household wire is cheaper than stranded and solid makes a nice bus - it stays where you put it, stays straight, and is slightly easier to cut into the "middle" and attach to. "

Go take a look at that site. He even makes calculations to demonstrate the difference in resistance between starnded and single strand. Sometimes the difference can be an entire 100 micro ohms! And would you beleive that the ohm meter he uses can tell the difference when applying a voltage and measuring current.

Yes... Yes if you want to be politically correct even DC is a frequency. you pointed out it is just a low frequecy. The lowest infact! We do use 60Hz to run basic electronic devices in many countries. But I would say the frequency that is used the most would be between as low as 2Hz and as high is 32Hz but that high is rare. You see these are the frequencies at which our brain functions. Ever wonder why a 16 frame per second video look continous to us? Pretty slow computer with unparalled processing power. God must have know what he was doing.

Any ways, I will not argue this case any more. I will just say that new plug wires are neccesary under a few conditions. The most common of those is when the insulation breaks down and current path is open before the spark plug.

Since someone here has pointed out so kindly our fundamental E=IR equation. I encourage you to go to the web site I referenced to and make some calculations. He has already done a few for you. The go ahead and buy the new plug wires and figure out what the difference would be between the new ones and the old ones. I already have enough experience to know that there will not be much.

Well this engineer no longer has nothing to do and the wife is calling my name. Have a great weekend everyone. And keep those brain frequencies clocking along.

Joe

 

[Gro Harlem]

Re: Surprise result !!! from Sparkco wires

There is more than 15 members who installed our wires on their P5, and they all got surprise. Low end torque increase, better fuel consumption and smooth out entire engine rev. You all might check their forum at ( www.clubprotegequebec.com ) under TUNING section.

Should you have any question, please contact Sparkco Engineering Inc. ( info@sparkco.com ) at any time. The price for all Protege club member is USD$ 39.99 or CAD$ 60.00 + shipping.

No offense to you or anyone here, but you are misleading these people into thinking that these wires INCREASE power. That is pretty much impossible on a stock car like the MP3. It is possible to get a gain in HP if you get an IGNITION system on a forced induction system, but even then...wires alone won't give "HP" or "torque" gains.


As for my experience with performance plug wires....you get MUCH better throttle response (which some people claim to be "off the line hp" or low-midrange torque) b/c of the better ignition connection. You also CAN get better gas mileage, but i've noticed on mazda cars, this doesn't happen. I actually LOST gas mileage when I installed a full ignition on my protege.

Edit: Oh and i'm not saying don't buy these wires, I'm just making sure people understand that these DON'T increase power. Its a very common misconception among the import scene, and I really don't like it when the manufacturers themselves post stuff like this.

 

[enry]

Why are these wires better than OEM?

I have personally seen that the potential produced by the ignition system of a car can break down air and produce sparks of up to 1 cm. The dielectric breakdown of air occurs with differentials of 3000V / mm. It is correct to assume a maximum of 30kV flowing through wires, though this is more than required for my explanation.

High voltages (>15 kV) such as found in our ignition system are known to ionize air and produce Ozone (O3). (http://scifun.chem.wisc.edu/chemweek/ozone/ozone.html ). Ozone is a very reactive gas, damaging "polymeric materials such as rubber and plastics, causing them to deteriorate prematurely".

After-market wires with silicone insulation, outer jacket, and boots, such as Sparkco's wire sets, are less affected by this deterioration. Silicone is naturally unaffected by ozone, ultraviolet light, acid rain, age, and even temperatures to 400F.

One should also consider that OEM wires tend to get dirty with various deposits... if your wires are already marginal, buildups on the wires may further reduce the dielectric breakdown potential of wires. My father experienced this problem on an old car of his. Kept having to clean the damn wires. Then one day he bought silicone wires... never had to touch the wires again.

Given the above, one can reasonably (40$ reasonably) assume that after-market wires are more reliable in delivering the potential to the spark plug, which increases the probability of proper ignition.

(I could carry on this topic in theoretical physics, explaining that every event has an associated probability.. like, throw a ball at the wall, there's a probability that it goes through, and a probability that it bounces back, ah well, that's another story altogether)

I hope this puts everyone's questions to rest. If you really want, I could break out my tesla coil (produces 30kV) and demonstrate the limitations of OEM wires vs aftermarket wires, but I think the unit is in pieces somewhere in the attic.

PS-don't play with a tesla coil unless you know what you are doing.

 

[LinuxRacr]

Re: Cool

Outstanding, that skin effect! Did not think you would be discussing that particular effect. You are correct in that electricity flows on the surface area of the wire. But the main reason for using straded wire instead of single strad wire has nothing to do with resistance. It just makes it more flexable. I do agree that there will be some difference in reistance but again its nominal. Since we are using references:

from: http://www.wiringfordcc.com/trakwire.htm

"Solid or stranded? The skin effect gives the solid, for a given size, a slightly higher voltage drop. But it's so little, you can relax. You probably have known that the skin effect was nothing to worry about at DCC frequencies. Now you have evidence to support that knowledge.

Solid and stranded perform so nearly the same that the difference is too small to notice. Solid household wire is cheaper than stranded and solid makes a nice bus - it stays where you put it, stays straight, and is slightly easier to cut into the "middle" and attach to. "

Go take a look at that site. He even makes calculations to demonstrate the difference in resistance between starnded and single strand. Sometimes the difference can be an entire 100 micro ohms! And would you beleive that the ohm meter he uses can tell the difference when applying a voltage and measuring current.

Yes... Yes if you want to be politically correct even DC is a frequency. you pointed out it is just a low frequecy. The lowest infact! We do use 60Hz to run basic electronic devices in many countries. But I would say the frequency that is used the most would be between as low as 2Hz and as high is 32Hz but that high is rare. You see these are the frequencies at which our brain functions. Ever wonder why a 16 frame per second video look continous to us? Pretty slow computer with unparalled processing power. God must have know what he was doing.

Any ways, I will not argue this case any more. I will just say that new plug wires are neccesary under a few conditions. The most common of those is when the insulation breaks down and current path is open before the spark plug.

Since someone here has pointed out so kindly our fundamental E=IR equation. I encourage you to go to the web site I referenced to and make some calculations. He has already done a few for you. The go ahead and buy the new plug wires and figure out what the difference would be between the new ones and the old ones. I already have enough experience to know that there will not be much.

Well this engineer no longer has nothing to do and the wife is calling my name. Have a great weekend everyone. And keep those brain frequencies clocking along.

Joe

Damn, I remember all of this stuff from my 2 years at ITT Tech. Ahhh, the memories!.....

 

[IWonder]

Cool

Ahh... so what you are saying is that there is very high voltage running on thes wires and if the insulation on those plugs wire is not up to par you may need new ones. Otherwise if the insulation is okay you dont. And that OEM insulation is not as good as some aftermarket plug wires. I can agree with that.

I think Enry is on our side. Because he re-stated what I have been saying. The problem I had was that people think they are improving performance above and beyond the normal capabilities of the vehicle by swaping perfectly good wires for perfectly good wires. And sure you can make the argument that the aftermarket wires will last longer because of higher quality insulation. But replacing the wires now even though the ones you have may be okay (depending on the mileage of the car obviously some people have a good reason to replace the wires) is just personal preferance and no one can argue with that.

It is when people claim their product is better because of tri-core wires to reduce resistance. Come on, bring out that old tesla coil and unwind that thing. It should work as a plug wire too. And if ya' put some silicone insultaion on it hey now you got high quality plug wires. But you never increased horse power, torque, lessened vibration, etc.... (unless ther was some terrible misfire problem related to a short in plug wires which I guess could happen).

So like I have been saying replace your wires if the insulation is bad on your current wires, or you like the color of the news.

 

[enry]

Re: Cool

I am on nobody's side. And if anyone purchases these wires and is dissatisfied they will be refunded.

 

[70]

Throttle bodies??

Eric Burmeister found that the stock throttle body already flows the best that the car can handle. A larger throttle body did not help performance what so ever in his rally Protege.

I'm just curious as to why everyone wants a larger throttle body? Will it acutally help? And if it helps, how will it help?

I kind of figure you want to flow more air through the throttle body, but at stock, or close to stock air flow levels you won't really see any gain with a larger throttle body.

This issue reminds me of the rear strut tower bar for the sedan. The sedan already has a built in rear strut tower bar, its called the frame. The Protege 5 on the other hand could use one.

 

[fastdrvr23]

Re: Cool

...It is when people claim their product is better because of tri-core wires to reduce resistance. Come on, bring out that old tesla coil and unwind that thing. It should work as a plug wire too. And if ya' put some silicone insultaion on it hey now you got high quality plug wires. But you never increased horse power, torque, lessened vibration, etc.... (unless ther was some terrible misfire problem related to a short in plug wires which I guess could happen).

Hmm... All I know with my limited amount of knowledge is that the wires made a noticeable difference. Throttle response is improved between 4,000 and 5,500 RPMs, and at idle the car is quieter and smoother. If you would like to disagree, please do so... None of the bad maintenance conditions you referenced above existed before I changed the wires. The theory might not be sound, but the wires made a noticeable difference... Of course, once again, with my limited knowledge, I probably couldn't notice such a gain. :Shrug:

 

[Section 8]

I was very skeptical about actual gains in performance due to changing out the spark plug wires. I've been doing this import tuning thing for a long time, and I've always believed that going to aftermarket spark plug wires did nothing except make your engine bay look cooler. But after reading so many reviews where people have said that the Sparkco wires made a noticable difference on our protege's, I figured $40 wasn't too big of a risk to see if it was true. I figured that if anything, it couldn't hurt and it would add a bit of color to the engine bay. I went into it expecting that there would be no difference at all.

Well, I just finished installing the wires and took the car for a spin around the block. The first thing I noticed was that when I started up the car, it idled about 300-400 RPMs lower than it did before I changed the wires and that the normal "startup vibration/rattle" was gone...I thought "hmm that's strange..." and drove off. After driving around for a bit, I can say without a doubt that the car definitly feels like it has a bit more tourqe and that it runs much smoother with less vibration. Also, the jerkiness that I felt in first gear when holding a constant low RPM is now gone. I have no idea why it helps but it indeed does! My only guess was that the wires that came from Mazda were not insulated very well or that they were much too small of a gauge. I don't work for Sparkco, I am not affliated with Sparkco and I have absolutly nothing to gain by their sales of wires but I whole-heartedly recommend that everyone who owns a 2.0L protege try these wires out. They are definitly worth the $40. Also shipping from canada to Southern Cali was extremly fast, I ordered on 9/4/02 and recieved the wires at my door the morning of 9/7/02...3 days from Canada! Amazing customer service. Thanks Sparkco for making such a cool product.

Shawn

 

[Antoine]

I really appreciate your honest review Section 8...glad to hear you guys are satisfied with the wires...and happier to hear that customer service is excellent. Keep up the good work Sparkco!

If anyone is interested in the raffle for a set of Sparkco Wires, please check the raffle section for your chance to win!

http://mazdamp3.com/vbb225/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7220

 

[MP3-E]

Well, I got my set on order, should be here in a couple days...
I CAN'T WAIT!!

 

[MP3Ben]

Woohoo, I haven't been on here for ages (the whole 'life' thing taking up most of my time) and after I read the post I figured I had to give it a shot. Ordered mine a few days ago *rubbing hands in anticipation*

 

[MP3-E]

SWEET! I received my wires today, Im going to put them in RIGHT NOW! Really fast delivery! they came much faster than I expected.

 

[PaulMP3]

i always thought this car idle a little high around 700-800rpms. s*** for 40$ why not get them it sound like everyone is more then satisfied. im ordering mine now!

 

[INiTiAL33]

Our club just ordered 21 sets! CAnt wait!!

Peter at Sparkco is THE man to deal with! Just give him a shout out if you guys need anything.

 

[MP3-E]

another satisfied customer

I just got the install done and took the MP3 out for a spin, and these cables are worth every penny! if you dont get a set you are crazy.

just my 2 cents...